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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Oh, that wonderful "free" canadian health care. (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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gdw
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http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Coupl......ory.html
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/......ory.html

Very tragic.

Essentially, Joseph Maraachli, a 13 month old boy, is on life support, and has a terminal neurodegenerative disease. The family wishes to take him home to pass in the company of them.

There was a court order to have the breathing tube removed mid February, however that did not happen. I am not sure if it was postponed, or was tied to the court order ordering the family to give consent to have the tube pulled, which they refuse to do.

There are some misleading headlines out there saying they will not let the family take him home. They lost a daughter to the same condition, I believe 9 years ago. The doctors performed a tracheotomy on her, which allowed her to breath on her own, which gave the family some additional time with her, to bring her home to die.

Now, the family says they accept that their child will die. They wish to have the same procedure done for their son, so they can bring him home.
This is what they are being denied.

The hospital has offered to transport the boy to their home, on life support, where they would them pull the tube.

This may seem like a minor semantic dispute, however, the difference is a bit more extreme than that.

As the boy cannot breath or swallow on his own, pulling the tube would mean he would begin to choke, and then suffocate to death. Certainly an unpleasant way to go. Not to mention the added trauma of watching your child die like that.
This is what the courts and doctors are mandating be done. They added the concession of bring him home before they do it.

They family wants the tracheotomy, which would give them more time with him, though I am not sure, and I wish this was not something I even had to wonder, how his passing would play out in this scenario, though I imagine the family would procure some form of hospice care to make him as comfortable as possible.

The argument from the hospital and doctors, I imagine playing a part in the decision of the Consent and Capacity Board of Ontario, is that the tracheotomy is unnecessary, and not considered a palliative procedure. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/st......ase.html

They also argue that it would add undue risks. Of course, any and all procedures have risks. Though I am kind of confused as to their concerns of such procedural risk, over the alternative of doing something that would lead to death in a matter of minutes.

There have been a few comparisons to Terri Schiavo, though, besides the matter of dispute over taking a vegetative patient off life support, they are far from similar. The Schiavo case came from a dispute between Schiavo's husband and her parents, then made a public spectacle through the courts, media, and religious "right to life" groups.

The courts, media and religious groups certainly have been playing their part with Joseph Maraachli, there is no conflict with the relatives. This conflict seems to have arisen from having a board/committee making these decisions, and attempting to supersede the wishes of the family.

Now, don't get me wrong, I understand that the doctors have had their say as well. I am not arguing against their decisions and advice. They should not be forced to perform procedures they do not wish to, or feel are necessary. The problem here is having the courts and Consent and Capacity Board of Ontario mandate what is done.

There are many groups advocating for the Maraachli family, and even a group with a jet ready to fly the child to another hospital that is willing to treat him in accordance with the family's wishes.

Unfortunately, no hospital has stepped forward with such an offer. I have no doubt this is the result of the highly publicized nature, and politicizing of the case. Any hospital stepping forward would be perceived as making a statement, in fact several, on the issues attached to this, such as "right to life" and euthanasia. Such a stigma would likely have long lasting effects.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
balducci
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As the first article notes, the private health care system in the States has also refused to accept this boy and perform the operation the parents would like to have done. The medical communities in both countries have refused to perform an operation they say will not improve the baby's quality of life. In other words, this has nothing to do with the public or private "style" of the health care system and I think it is misleading and dishonest for someone to make it sound as though it is.

It's sad to note that the parents lost a baby daughter to the same neurological disorder. I can't help but wonder whether they will, or should, try again.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
gdw
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Balducci, I mentioned that it seems likely that hospitals in america have not stepped forward do to the over politicizing of it all to begin with.

Also, the american health care system is not exactly a free market one either, and even if it was, it would not exactly be relevant considering the point is that it has to do with institutionalizing these kinds of decisions. There were court orders mandating the parents consent to having the tube pulled.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Also, you can't exactly say "the private health care system in the States" refused anything. Specific hospitals have refused, and none has stepped forward with an offer, but as the "private health care system in the States" is not exactly a single organization, you can't make a claim about it as a whole, based on the actions, or lack of actions, of some.

Like I said though, not exactly relevant.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-03-07 22:52, gdw wrote:

Also, you can't exactly say "the private health care system in the States" refused anything. Specific hospitals have refused, and none has stepped forward with an offer, but as the "private health care system in the States" is not exactly a single organization, you can't make a claim about it as a whole, based on the actions, or lack of actions, of some.

Neither is the health care system in Canada a single organization. You can't make a claim about it as a whole, based on the actions, or lack of actions, of some part of it. So why are you doing so? (Besides which, Canada also has private medical clinics ... Canada's health care system is not 100% public).
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
seadog93
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Quote:
On 2011-03-07 23:04, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-03-07 22:52, gdw wrote:

Also, you can't exactly say "the private health care system in the States" refused anything. Specific hospitals have refused, and none has stepped forward with an offer, but as the "private health care system in the States" is not exactly a single organization, you can't make a claim about it as a whole, based on the actions, or lack of actions, of some.

Neither is the health care system in Canada a single organization. You can't make a claim about it as a whole, based on the actions, or lack of actions, of some part of it. So why are you doing so? (Besides which, Canada also has private medical clinics ... Canada's health care system is not 100% public).


That stood out to me as well.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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gdw
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Considering we are dealing with orders from the superior court, kinda becomes one centralized system that is making decisions for this family.

Also, I don't think I actually did make any direct claims about the canadian health care system, outside of the initial sarcastic topic name. And said comment remains accurate as this is all directly tied to the socialized health care system, and giving power over decisions like this to such a system.

And americans feared the so called "death panels."
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
MagicSanta
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It is a shame about the child and their previous one. I won't comment as to the need of a certain medical procedure, the doctors know best but if it eases the burdon of the parents to have the procedure done to make them 'think' it is easier for the little guy then there are points for that as well.

Balducci does bring up the point I was struck with. If they will or should try again. My wife had a friend who was very religious and went to school in a state between Nevada and Colorado (wink wink). At last I knew she had four children, two had died of a genetic disease, one was not expected to live long, and the last had it and was also not expected to see kindergarten. The doctors said that virtually EVERY child they had would suffer from this disease yet they, the parents, said they would keep trying because of their faith. It was terrible in my opinion considering how many children need loving homes and while I think this couple would screw up a puppy with their nuttiness it may be better than living in foster homes for kids. So Canadian couple! Adopt! Wait, that isn't sensative of me, can straight couples adopt in Canada?
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-03-07 23:11, gdw wrote:

Considering we are dealing with orders from the superior court, kinda becomes one centralized system that is making decisions for this family.

I guess you must be unaware of this, but court orders exist in the United States as well. Look up the Terri Schiavo medical case.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
abc
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While I often disagree with gdw, I don't think other than "intentionally" choosing a misleading title, that he was critical of the Canadian health care system other than being sarcastic. I amassuming I read everything correctly which I may not have.
Dannydoyle
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It is a sad case. I have no opinion on it one way or the other, I just know it is sad. I will say this. I absolutely hate it when politicians use one sad case to make some point. This is the same basic idea, though past the title you didn't try to make any real conclusion of the system.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
McAllisterMagic
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The wait time at hospitals where I live are moderate. Their is a major problem though
with the lack of rooms and beds. Many people who are sick or injured have to wait
hours just to see the nurse.
MagicSanta
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If they spent less time cloning and more time healing they wouldn't have that issue.
McAllisterMagic
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That has nothing to do with the topic Santa, funny how you
like to try and rib at somebody all the time. How old are you?
MagicSanta
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24
McAllisterMagic
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Right
MagicSanta
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Wrong thread, that is my favorite TV show...
kcg5
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Quote:
On 2011-03-07 23:11, gdw wrote:
And americans feared the so called "death panels."


Idiots did.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
MagicSanta
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That would explain why I didn't fear 'em....
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-03-08 00:21, Dannydoyle wrote:
It is a sad case. I have no opinion on it one way or the other, I just know it is sad. I will say this. I absolutely hate it when politicians use one sad case to make some point. This is the same basic idea, though past the title you didn't try to make any real conclusion of the system.


Thanks.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
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