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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Jazz is dead! (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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motown
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Django Reinhardt, Dave Brubeck, Bix Beiderbecke, Bill Evans, Stan Getz
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
– Karl Germain
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2011-03-09 12:54, motown wrote:
Django Reinhardt, Dave Brubeck, Bix Beiderbecke, Bill Evans, Stan Getz


All imitations, except maybe Django, who was a gypsy and so might have felt some of the pain necessary to produce jazz.

But you guys obviously haven't watched the film "the Cry of Jazz" in the original link. It's all there in detail.

White people cannot play jazz. When they play something like it, they are imitating it, not making it.

But even if they could, JAZZ IS DEAD!
motown
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Well, let's agre to disagree.
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
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stoneunhinged
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Agree to watch the video?

(I mean, guys, what's up with you? I post a link in good fun thinking we could discuss the film, but y'all are disagreeing with me as if I am doing anything other than telling you what's in the film.

So, for the slow: the link is to a film called the "Cry of Jazz", a 1959 film which claims that jazz is dead and that white people cannot play jazz. It is NOT MY POSITION, FOLKS! It's in the original clip. You can't "agree to disagree" with me--it's not my point of view.

Here's the film: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0193850/ )
motown
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Ok, maybe I took what you were saying the wrong way. It sounded to me like you were agreeing with the film.
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
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Natural Mystic
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Stoneunhinged,

"White people cannot play jazz. When they play something like it, they are imitating it, not making it."

I totally agree with those statements because the life experiences among the races were vastly different.


NM
"You never change the existing reality by
fighting it. Instead, create a new model that
makes the old one obsolete."
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-03-09 23:24, Natural Mystic wrote:
Stoneunhinged,

"White people cannot play jazz. When they play something like it, they are imitating it, not making it."

I totally agree with those statements because the life experiences among the races were vastly different.


NM


Back to Oscar Peterson. He certainly would have disagreed with you, as indicated in my link above. Nothing personal, but I trust Oscar's judgment of musicianship more than I trust anyone at the Café. But that's just me.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Erwin
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Can blue men sing the whites?
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2011-03-10 11:24, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

Back to Oscar Peterson. He certainly would have disagreed with you, as indicated in my link above. Nothing personal, but I trust Oscar's judgment of musicianship more than I trust anyone at the Café. But that's just me.

John


Pretty well said. If Oscar Peterson didn't know what jazz was, I don't know who did. Pretty early in John's link Peterson says, "Talent is color-blind." But listen to the whole clip. He was every bit as intelligent and well-spoken as the guy in the "Cry of Jazz". In my opinion, of course. Smile
critter
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I was playing back. I seem to have done it again...

Benny Goodman! Jewish pain.
Okay, I understand, they were oppressed a lot. But they also invented cheesecake.
You can't suffer when you have cheesecake.
You can shove a hot poker under my armpit, but if you put cheesecake in front of me first, I'll be smiling!
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Natural Mystic
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Magnus Eisengrim
“Back to Oscar Peterson. He certainly would have disagreed with you, as indicated in my link above. Nothing personal, but I trust Oscar's judgment of musicianship more than I trust anyone at the Café. But that's just me.”

John,
With all due respect, I made that comment just to spur debate, much like stoneunhinged. Anyone can learn to play any form of music through practice and repetition. Of course, white people can play jazz.
Music in its simplest form is a series of notes and chord progressions coupled with other embellishments, arranged in a specific sequence.

Let’s agree that black people in America are really displaced Africans. Jazz is black Americans collective experience, folkways and sensibilities expressed in music. Without black Americans there would be no music called jazz. Otherwise, it would have been developed previously. Question? Would jazz, as you know it today, be in existence if black americans had unfettered access to the American dream and retained culture identify? I don’t think so.

According to your link, Oscar Peterson didn’t even know about jazz until his brother Fred introduced it to him. I agree with Oscar Peterson’s “talent is color blind” comment. Likewise, it’s nothing personal, I agree with Wynton Marsalis and his drummer when they said “Africa is the DNA” that gave jazz its soul.\

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3xS6o1XX......ure=fvwp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaKYzcrh76s&feature=fvwrel

Walter
"You never change the existing reality by
fighting it. Instead, create a new model that
makes the old one obsolete."
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
Magnus Eisengrim
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I think you have romanticized Jazz quite a bit. Jazz has a few African elements, LOTS of European elements, a few American folk elements, and bits and pieces that it picked up elsewhere.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Natural Mystic
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John,

"I think you have romanticized Jazz quite a bit. Jazz has a few African elements, LOTS of European elements, a few American folk elements, and bits and pieces that it picked up elsewhere."


The European element has to do with the instruments themselves, since anything remotely resembling Africa was prohibited.


Walt
"You never change the existing reality by
fighting it. Instead, create a new model that
makes the old one obsolete."
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
Magnus Eisengrim
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Prohibited? I don't think so. Available is more like it. The instruments is a big piece of the European element. But so is the harmonic structure. Jazz expanded traditional European harmony, but not right away; that took about half the 20th century to achieve.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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