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Orb New user 90 Posts |
As I've been stumbling across this conversation a couple of times, it seems like the majority of the knowledgeable (please correct me if I'm mistaken) seem to agree that puts are more natural than takes. For simplicitys sake, the argument appears to be that, a false take is more natural than a retention pass (put).
In my experience, a person will always use the hand which they are the strongest with. With that said, a right-handed person will alwayss place a coin in the left hand, and take a coin from the left hand, always favoring their strongest hand to do the work (based on 10s of people I've tried it out on). The left-handed people do the same, now the real interesting part would be to see how an ambidextrous part would handle the situation. The test was quite fair, I'd tell them to take the coin (making sure they have the coin in the hand I want them to) and then say "nono, other hand" very casually, and the results were always the same. This makes sense, as we are often routine based, and lazy (as in, we will do what takes the least work and brain capacity, and if possible, use our autonomic memory). To me, it seems quite fair to say that it's how people naturally act, however I realize there might be more to it than that. Perhaps there is less attention directed at a hand that takes a coin, due to the coin not having time to catch reflection and stand out from the envoirment (that might otherwise be somewhat dark, in contrast to the silver coin). That would make takes more subtle, but yet not more natural (perhaps more natural *looking*? that may be subject to out interpretation). Perhaps taking a coin, *looks* more effortless, and it is percived as more innocent since, we are quite lazy in that sense. Any input on this subject would be greatly appreciated! I realize there must be much more to this topic than I am aware of. |
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Hare Veteran user 323 Posts |
I've always felt that it is a good idea to be somewhat "dual handed". I do not think that there are many modern magicians who can do every sleight or handling in both directions, but it just makes good sense to be able to do a few of the basic holds and passes from either side. The magician who can't is crippled in a sense, as everything will tend to "go" in one direction, and the performer will be somewhat predictable if you watch them work more than one or two sleight-of-hand routines.
If your a person who is an amateur doing an occassional sleight, it doesn't matter...but if someone is a serious practioner, they ought to take the time to be capable, basically functional, both ways for important basic sleights. Many early books stress this. These more casual days, less written works talk about it. I've made it a point to at least be functional with CP, EP, FP and a couple of passes/shuttle passes and subtleties on my weak side. I try to think about what is most important for my weak side, as it's always less fun developing that lazy, crappy hand. Really, a few sleights take you a long ways on your weak side. In real life, of course, we let the objects dictate which hand we use. We pass things both ways. That is natural. One sidedness is/looks very unnatural. If you are passing the gravy to Gran'ma Wilkens who is on your right, and it sits to your left on the table, you will pick it up with your weak hand, pass it to your own right hand on it's way to Gran'ma. The initial location of the object is important in the setting of the routine. In real life, you don't pass things from hand to hand without a reason, so, it's imperative if you want to vanish a coin, to have a logical starting point and destination that makes sense, that corresponds with your need to "pass it", from hand to hand. So, most magicians try and organize their table or pockets, and the way they stand with respect to spectators with this in mind. It's perfectly okay to have a coin in your right pocket, take it out with your right, pass it to your left, to show it to a person on your left side...but it's suspcious and telling if you do this, and they are standing on your right. Anyways, I'm a member of the "both hands" club, but I'm guilty of only being just adequate along these lines. Skilled CP or EP and Fingertip rest are really must have with both hands, in my opinion.
"Better described in The Amateur Magician's Handbook"
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-13 18:03, Orb wrote: ? which is it (according to those so-called supposed knowledgeable ... critters) ? IMHO what comes across as natural depends on both character and context. Also, IMHO there are not so many who can hide their use of sleights as one might expect. What's left is often, again IMHO, rationalization of choices which may or may not be related to what appears as natural to audiences.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dan Efran Regular user Pittsburgh, PA 150 Posts |
Depends on context. For example, if you're freeing up a hand to reach for something else, a put will be more natural.
Selecting one of several coins to display: a take. Other contexts: decide. Right? |
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Dan Efran Regular user Pittsburgh, PA 150 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-13 18:03, Orb wrote: This is a really good point, I think. (One factor among many.) Thanks for pointing it out. |
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Jeff O Loyal user 274 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-14 00:48, Dan Efran wrote: I am right handed and I actually utilize a false take with my left hand from my right. It feels natural but I may be that outlying point. . . who knows. |
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Wes65 Inner circle I've said very little in 1219 Posts |
The problem is that people normally pick up an object with the hand they intend to use. So neither is really natural and both must be justified with some motivation. And don't forget a steal if you can motivate the hands coming together.
Wes
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Orb New user 90 Posts |
"If you are passing the gravy to Gran'ma Wilkens who is on your right, and it sits to your left on the table, you will pick it up with your weak hand, pass it to your own right hand on it's way to Gran'ma."
I would go through the extra trouble of turning my body, in order to pick it with my strong hand (right), simply because I have so much more controll with that hand, and can do it more safely and with less trouble (taking less brain capacity to do the action). Most people I have seen do these actions, do merely use their strong hand, the only time they seem to do the transfer that you speak of, is if the right hand cannot reach to its destination by itself, then the person will transfer the object to the other hand, and put/give it. Interesting... "? which is it (according to those so-called supposed knowledgeable ... critters) ?" Critters? Please elaborate. And my bad for the typo, hopefully people didn't get too confused. What I mean is **Takes are suppesedly more natural than puts** Thanks for pointing the typo out. "Depends on context. For example, if you're freeing up a hand to reach for something else, a put will be more natural. Selecting one of several coins to display: a take. Other contexts: decide. Right?" What if the hand you need to free up is your weak hand, would you still use the weak hand to make a put into the strong hand? "I am right handed and I actually utilize a false take with my left hand from my right. It feels natural but I may be that outlying point. . . who knows." With all due respect, I'm not sure if we can trust our own natural actions anymore, as they may have been tainted with all the sleights and what's "supposed" to be normal, thinking. "The problem is that people normally pick up an object with the hand they intend to use. So neither is really natural and both must be justified with some motivation." Very interesting thought! |
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Dan Efran Regular user Pittsburgh, PA 150 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-14 09:51, Orb wrote: Hmmm. Me too, at least if it was something heavy and seemed less awkward. Good point. But who can pass gravy easily from hand to hand? Probably a bad example for coin work. (Hmmm...is there a Gravy Pass? Is it in Bobo? ) Personally, I think a better example would be to videotape yourself doing awkward tasks with small objects: take out your keys and a handful of change from the same pocket; pick out six coins while trying to unlock a door. Dump coins all over your table, then organize them into stacks as fast as you can. Silly, awkward stuff barely related to the moves you know. Watch how your hands cope when your focus is on the task. Quote:
What if the hand you need to free up is your weak hand, would you still use the weak hand to make a put into the strong hand? I think so, because the motivation is still to get rid of what's in the hand, not to take it. It's not that the strong hand wants it, but that the weak hand doesn't want to be holding it. So the weak hand moves first and most: a put. Let's not forget that there's another possibility: an equal put/take move. The hands move together, meet in the middle, and pass the object cooperatively. If you can't decide which hand should be in charge, be sure to consider this option too. |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
I do Takes and Puts and even "Shows" a lot in my work and it takes some practice to get them natural looking and feeling but once you do, man is it incredibly deceptive. I first played with this a bit in a coin exercise I included in my Short Pockets download called, Ike & Mike, a coin play between 2 silver half dollars. Since then I have used the moves in other works where I might've increased the advantage of the play via my better understandings of what works. In general, you should work to deliver Takes, Puts and Shows in both hands though I will admit that it is more comfortably used to doing the work from your strong side. Again I use the moves in several things I do, especially with 1 or even 2 coins in play. Even works devilishly well in conjunction with added moves like a Changeover Palm. I do it all the time.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Dan Efran Regular user Pittsburgh, PA 150 Posts |
Another context factor: Are you looking at what you're doing?
I suspect you're going to be more likely to use putting movements when you're looking away from your hands (e.g. toward what you're about to pick up) and more likely to use taking actions when looking at your hands (e.g. picking up one of several coins). |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Much wisdom in Dan's posts.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-14 09:51, Orb wrote:... Yes, it does take some effort to catch yourself doing what's normal and also to quietly observe others as they do what's normal for them in context.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Orb New user 90 Posts |
Dan, thanks for sharing, just like Andrew said, much wisdom in your posts, they really got me thinking!
MB, are you talking about taking moves that are unnatural to you, and making them natural through practice and observation? What do you think would be the benefit with this, over taking a move that is naturally natural to you, and making the best you can out of that? Also, what do you mean by "shows"? |
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JohnWells Inner circle The Southern Wild 1791 Posts |
A put's as good as a take, but nothing beats a steal.
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Orb New user 90 Posts |
"A put's as good as a take, but nothing beats a steal. "
How come? Interesting thought. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
'cause, "the best vanish is of a coin that never was."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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J-Mac Inner circle Ridley Park, PA 5338 Posts |
I actually feel that Takes are somewhat more deceptive than Puts. Less moves and more direct. My opinion, of course. (Methinks a bit of Al Schneider's thinking has driven my opinion to an extent. )
Thanks! Jim |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-16 12:53, Orb wrote: No, not really. When I do a take it feels pretty natural unless I do it from my weaker side, and even that has gotten better from practice. But I do think that observation reveals a lot as to people's perceptions as to these moves. As to "shows" I am speaking of doing a take of a coin but showing another coin from the palm to the fingertips. Actually the coin has been switched as you are secretly using 2 coins within a series of puts and takes. Hope all this makes some sense.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
Check out Tim Feher's Reverse Retention -- the timing of the hand movement kills.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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