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Jay Are Inner circle 4186 Posts |
Chris was 100% right...
could not agree more... j
xxx
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-16 17:38, Futureal wrote: Nope. More bad performers out there, more work for good ones. It's the good ones that become your business competition. The problem with Magic is that the Pro is sometimes just as bad as the newcomers. Really.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Clay Shevlin Elite user 497 Posts |
There can be little doubt that the internet has opened up a whole new vista for human communications. And like all other means by which humans communicate, there are upsides and downsides to communications via internet technology.
The Twitter phenomenon is fascinating – I don't really understand it, but it's fascinating nonetheless. In Twitter we have a means of communication which limits the writer to 140 characters. Not even 140 words – 140 characters. I happen to think that there is great richness, complexity and diversity in the thoughts and feelings that humans experience and can communicate, so I've always thought it a bit ironic that this new means of communication (Twitter) is so restrictive. In my opinion, it has the effect of rendering most Twitter communications inconsequential, or at best, incomplete. Of course, in the abstract there's nothing wrong with brief or playful communications, and among close friends, there certainly seems no harm in the brief expression of thoughts, feelings, activities and/or inside jokes. (As an aside, if Twitter and its character limitations fostered greater cogency and clarity in the expression of ideas, I'd be all for that. But does it?) But is Twitter the medium for expressing thoughts or concepts which are, by their nature, rather complex or nuanced? Regarding Chris Kenner's tweet about plumbers and magicians, I read the string of tweets that followed it (including Chris' follow-ups); maybe I'm dense, but even after reading Chris' post in this thread, I don't really know what Chris was saying (I certainly didn't understand what the “obvious” was in his “I love when the obvious makes everyone so uncomfortable” tweet). Sure, I could try to “connect the dots” and fill in the blanks with my understanding of magic, professional magicians, magic hobbyists, etc., but that seems an empty exercise if the intent is to understand Chris' thoughts on the subject. So was Chris trying to express a serious thought about pros versus hobbyists, or just trying to stir things up with inadequate, vague and provocative comments? Ask Chris for the answer to that. If he was trying to express a serious thought, then he chose the wrong medium in Twitter. If, on the other hand, he was trying to stir things up, apparently he succeeded, in which case the admonishments to “take a chill pill,” and the comments that readers are taking his comments too seriously, etc., seem rather disingenuous. Chris apparently wanted the attention – “I did say it on twitter for the world to read” (with 2287 followers at present, he's a bit short of “the world”) – and he seems to have gotten it. Now he shouldn't disown it or dismiss it and the resulting comments. Twitter uses the analogy of birds tweeting. Yes, birds do tweet. And they also poop indiscriminately. I can't help but thinking there's an apt analogy somewhere in there. |
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videoman Inner circle 6732 Posts |
I don't always agree with Chris Kenner's comments or viewpoints, but mostly I do. I'm glad he has the courage and honesty to say what he really thinks. We can choose to agree or disagree, but it usually gets you thinking regardless. I don't believe one should be elitist or mean-spirited but sometimes the truth needs to be told and it's refreshing at times to hear it. For too long magicians never wanted to publicly say a bad word about any magician or magic act. It got stale and old and rendered any of their opinions virtually meaningless. I can remember Bill Larsen writing in Genii and not wishing to hurt anyone's feelings, would generally only write wonderful accolades about an act (or at most a very polite and soft somewhat negative review such as "it wasn't my cup of tea".) If he didn't like something it usually just went unsaid. But that really isn't doing the performers or acts any favors. Many times what you really need to hear is the honest truth. I think magic in general needs to hear more of the honest truth. I remember Chris's statement from a while back regarding illusionists in general..."for many of them the next illusion they buy should be a treadmill". That can be taken as mean, or as jealousy, but really you have to laugh and nod your head in agreement because it really is very true (and hilarious.) So keep saying what you're feeling Chris and I'll decide whether I agree with you or think you're full of s***.
That's the fun of sharing viewpoints to me. Bill |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Quite simply, an elitist can "bully" other magicians because they don't measure up to their self-imposed standard.
And there is/was a lot of that going on here on the Café and so much more on other forums.
Dennis Michael
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AndrewJ New user Travis County, TX 70 Posts |
My feelings about this have been strong for quite some time.
Mr. Kenner, you have a great deal of talent and experience in magic. I have been using networked computers/communication tools since the mid 1980s. It is your job to understand magic. It is my day job to understand the means and methods of communicating through the world wide web. A janitor performing magic on the side is not new to you. Harsh words spilled out onto the Internet and justified as "pushing the limits" are not new to me. Pushing forward means not only addressing a problem but presenting a positive and working solution to the problem. This is and always will be the greater challenge. The person who is quick to shoot down others will be heard. The person who can calmly and reasonably prescribe solutions will typically find himself and his point of view much more welcomed. Please note that there exists a huge difference between presenting solutions and "playing nice." Although you may mean well, this kind of action only alienates the speaker in the long run. I was a regular in the Sperry chats and have seen you being absolutely awesome. My honest opinion is that your talent and dedication to magic alike are nearly twin forces of nature. I am speaking out of concern that you are degrading yourself for no good reason and to no good outcome. This is a concern born of nearly 25 years experience in my own field. -Andrew |
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Kent Wong Inner circle Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 2458 Posts |
I have long since stopped caring what other magicians call themselves or others around them. Instead, I'm much more concerned about the quality of my own magic and the opinions of the people who have seen my show. There's no doubt in their minds that I am a magician, and a professional one to boot. The quality of your skills, your ability to entertain through magic, and the manner of your conduct are the elements that allow your audience to define who and what you are. At the end of the day, it's only their opinion that matters.
Kent
"Believing is Seeing"
<BR>______________________ <BR> <BR>www.kentwongmagic.com |
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Chester M New user Saskatchewan, Canada 24 Posts |
Kent, well put!! In the end it is all about the audience and your impact on them, hopefully a positive impact.
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noble1 Special user 651 Posts |
You don't have to agree with every single thing a person says in order to admire their talent or be their friend. Sometimes it is worth it to be able to agree to disagree.
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Banester Special user 669 Posts |
First of all some of you guys should lookup the defintion of magician. That young boy who goes to school and performs the dancing cane routine for his parents is not just a student, but also a magician. That person who performs the ball and vase trick the same way it has done for a 100yrs is still a magician by definition as well as the guy who vanishes a silk with a thumbtip once a year. You may not like his routine or patter and you may know a hundred different ways to make that coin vanish better than he/she does and guess what that doesn't change that he is still a magician and it doesn't make a difference if he performs once a year or 365.
As far as I know there is not a written test, oral or performed test to become a magician, so who exactly is setting these standards? Using AlejandroJRangel analogy with the guitar. A musician is one who writes, performs or makes music. So yah, that person who plays the guitar is a musician. Maybe he isn't a very good one or there are better ones, but he is still a musician. You don't have to be a master at your craft or trade to be defined and you don't have to further the trade either. You can choose who you would like to hang around with, maybe you only want to associate yourself with people of your equal skill that's your right. Also, Steve can delete anything he wants on this forum since he is the owner. You can say what you want (civil right) and he can delete it because he has the right being the owner of the site. Don't mean to single you out, but I think you hit on most of the points that people are thinking or feeliing.
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives become filled with joy -Doug Henning- |
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Bryan Gilles Inner circle Northern California 1732 Posts |
Good write up Kent! You pretty much nailed it (in my personal opinion). At the end of the day, its what the audience thinks. That's why many of us do what we do.
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
Quote: Pond scum also rises to the top... On 2011-03-16 13:24, markmiller wrote:
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Mickey Mantle once said, "Little league players have just as much right calling themselves ball players as I do."
I'm sure Michael Jordon would say the same. It's all a game folks, and those who are afraid of promoting the game as a whole shouldn't really be in the game, they only bring disgrace to it. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-18 20:58, gaddy wrote: Ah, but like all single-celled organisms, are essential to all life. In fairness however, there is such a thing as pond scum parasites.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I guess everyone can look down on someone to make themselves feel better about not being happy with their station in life. It never works long term though.
Magician is a title I have always thought was bestowed upon you by an audience, not so much one we decided upon within our own ranks. If a person does 3 magic tricks a year, and the people they work for are happy and amused or amazed and feel they have just seen a magician, then in my opinion they have. For the time they are showing the tricks they are a magician, and in many cases a fantastic help to magic as an art in general.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
Quote: Awesome! Mr. Baker, you just blew (what passes for) my mind with that revelation... It's really all about perspective, huh?On 2011-03-18 21:27, Michael Baker wrote:
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
For once, I agree with Doyle. When others are, in all sincerity, calling you a magician -then (and only then) are you truly a magician.
THIS GUY is more of a magician than many "corporate entertainers" out there (or what ever the hell these guys are calling themselves these days to distance them from being called a magician by their corporate masters...) Because real people see him as a magician. Sure, he's a "drunk magician", but he's a magician, and that's more than a lot of the sock puppets here or in twit-land can say.
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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Leo Reynolds Jr Special user 864 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-16 03:21, Chris Kenner wrote: Maybe Chef Special sometime? Best Leo Jr |
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sleightly Elite user New Hampshire 500 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-16 15:37, Bryan Gilles wrote: This could be rephrased in this way: "Why do so many enthusiasts feel the need to up grade themselves?" Those who make a living performing magic often still "love" magic and talking shop, but some come to love it in different ways than the hobbyist. Frequently, enthusiasts like to engage the professional while they are "on the job" and are surprised when the professional appears to be short with them. The reality is that the professional is, more often than not, "on the clock" and has responsibilities that the enthusiast could not be aware of. Be respectful of the working pro, try not to get in the way of their work (or worse yet, reduce their opportunities by trying to inject yourself in their market). Be mindful that the "pro" has a certain reputation with their clients and has to maintain a relationship with them that can be affected by excessive interaction with hobbyists while they are engaged in business. One other thing to consider is "flight time". Those who make their living working in a field and have attained a certain number of hours engaged in that profession find that their interest often changes. They look for details that the beginner or enthusiast may not be able to see based on their development. When "pros" get together to talk shop they rarely sit down to share rudimentary material with one another (in our field that generally means "swap card tricks")... Instead they share experiences, swap war stories and often discuss philosophical approaches that are unlikely to be interesting to the individual without the "flight time" to either appreciate or benefit from them. The term "elitism" is most often invoked by those who feel left on the outside. In some occasions this might be a factor of cronyism, but more often than not it is simply related to commonality on the part of those involved in the discussion. Be kind, respectful and aware when interacting with others. Also, bring more to the table than simple enthusiasm and be surprised at how you might be received! ajp |
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noble1 Special user 651 Posts |
Point well taken Sleightly. While we're on the topic. To me there is nothing worse than being in the audience of a magic show and seeing other members of the audience that are "magicians" shuffling cards and rolling coins, etc. Who would go to a rock concert and bring a guitar to riff on as an audience member?
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