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magicnewswire Inner circle 1947 Posts |
I have to say... I love this thread just because it is making people think about who they are as a performer! Shouldn't we always be looking to improve and better the art? If not, why bother. Just do the same old crap.
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AndrewJ New user Travis County, TX 70 Posts |
I have yet to meet a magician, either by self-imposed title or some harsher standard, who felt like he needed to stop learning and growing.
What exactly counts as the same old crap? These days it's a lot easier to find "edgy" guys in hoodies performing showy card sleighs than someone who actually pulls a rabbit out of a hat. Mostly, though, I see the people who view it as personal growth staying with it the longest and performing the best material. Quote: This, too, is a form of elitism. That "same old crap" built the foundations of the forty-dollar party tricks that get passed off as "advancing the art."
Shouldn't we always be looking to improve and better the art? If not, why bother. Just do the same old crap. Yes, we should keep growing. Phrases like "the same old crap" suggest that there is only one direction to grow in. Paradoxically, that too would prevent "the art" from growing as far as possible. I suggest growing and, again, supporting others who wish to grow through the use of productive communication. |
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magicnewswire Inner circle 1947 Posts |
The same old crap = (as an example)
Not Crap - Tarbell = an amazing resource of material Crap = finding an effect that you like in Tarbell and doing it with the same patter and in the same way that you learned it, with nothing added or changed to Make it Your own" or even to try and make iot something new. Not the same old Crap = Ricky Jay and his 52 Assistants That is not new material.. but he owned it... he made it his own... He did it in such a way that even to this day, people want to know the source material or where they can find it. He made it feel like something different and not like the same old crap. I have seen people doing Professor's Nightmare at club meetings with the same patter that I heard and used when I was 10 years old. I was doing crap and they are still doing crap if they do it that way. Dan Harlan playing with the idea and coming out with a new twist on it is NOT crap. If this makes me an elitist... then so be it... I think that I am far from it. I do a podcast and maintain a website dedicated to an art that I love. I have been doing so since 1994 with no expectation of a reward. Yes.. I have a few sponsors, but if you think that I make any real money on this project, then you are fooling yourself. The Magic Newswire in no way pays any bills for my family. I do it because I love it and hope that you will too. As I have said elsewhere, know that I will never create a new effect, or put on the next great stage show. This is the one way that I hope to give back to one of my passions. I do, however, hope that by listening to the conversations that I record and put out there for you free of charge, that I might help to inspire someone to take things to another level instead of doing the same old crap. Some of my favorite chats on the Podcast have been with people from the Long Beach Mystics. Hearing Stan Allen and Mark Kalin talk about how they called one another out for doing "Crap" (and I will point out that they were not as polite when they said it,) is something that I think we need more of today instead of yes men saying.. "Oh.. that was lovely" Sadly, we all want to compliment one another instead of helping one another to improve through honest evaluation and constructive criticism. There ya go... that's enough from and old "elitist" I guess. Take it for what it is worth or throw it away. It is your call and time will tell. |
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rowdymagi5 Inner circle Virginia 3616 Posts |
I have seen people do the professors nightmare in the standard form and everyone in attendance loved it. Why? Because they had a very warm and likeable attitude. They came across really well. I have seen people take it and make it their own and quite frankly they sucked.
Magicians seem to like the guy who has originality. The paying audience just wants to be entertained. We as magicians need to remember that it is not always the sleights or skill level, but the ability to entertain. Sometimes routines become a mess and hard to follow because we feel a need to "jazz" it up. David Blaine kept it simple and look where it took him. Sometimes the originals were the best. |
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magicnewswire Inner circle 1947 Posts |
The problem with threads is that everyone thinks that they will change everyone else's opinion. I suffer under no such delusion.
If you enjoy magic.. have fun with it. If you can (and want to) earn a living doing it... do so. If you don't care what your "peers" think, then ignore them. If you do, listen, consider, and act according to your respect (or lack thereof) for the source and the advice that they have offered. Why are we even arguing about this? |
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epoptika Elite user Florida 477 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-16 09:14, Michael Baker wrote: There is no shame in being merely a magical enthusiast, or a magic collector, or magic historian or magic fan. You are not necessarily a "magician" per se, just because you collect magic tricks, read magic books and magazines and go to the local club meetings. I think it is accurate to say that the vast majority of people belonging to magic clubs are magic enthusiasts and not really magicians. I am sure the great majority of people who approach Chris Kenner after a Copperfield performance are magic fans claiming to be magician's and many of them, no doubt, behave in a very boorish manner. I am guessing that may have been what prompted him to post his controversial "tweet" . |
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epoptika Elite user Florida 477 Posts |
Some of my favorite chats on the Podcast have been with people from the Long Beach Mystics. Hearing Stan Allen and Mark Kalin talk about how they called one another out for doing "Crap" (and I will point out that they were not as polite when they said it,) is something that I think we need more of today instead of yes men saying.. "Oh.. that was lovely" Sadly, we all want to compliment one another instead of helping one another to improve through honest evaluation and constructive criticism.
[/quote] :applause: |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Not just my opinion but a fact:
Half the magicians in the world are below average. (This means the other half is already above average.) It's always been that way and will always be that way. If you really want to help, just worry about the top half. Harassing a few on the bottom is not going to change a thing. Jerks teaching others only produces more jerks. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Besides, the Only way to push a man up the ladder is to get lower than he is.
It's much easier to just reach down and offer a hand to pull him up. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
If you are looking to improve magic as a whole through your own work and want to raise it to another level that is fantastic. If you want to sit about on your backside and be critical of the work of others, elitist seems to be the term.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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AndrewJ New user Travis County, TX 70 Posts |
Quote: No more complaints. This is what I wanted.
Not Crap - Tarbell = an amazing resource of material It's easy to point out a problem with harsh words. Now you have specified the problem and given examples to fix it. Instead of just launching a vague accusation of "crap" out, you gave examples of what is not crap. This is what separates elitism from problem solving. I have nothing but support for this post, and thank you for taking the time to clarify. -Andrew |
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magicnewswire Inner circle 1947 Posts |
My pleasure Andrew.
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Scott Alexander V.I.P. 1471 Posts |
Isn't the goal to take the existing notes (in terms of music) and put your own accents, tempo, style and arrangements to them, and make them work for you. In magic, (as in music) there are good "cover bands" and bad "cover bands" and those who "cover" material and make it a little bit different. Then there are those who chosose a different path and really create something "off the charts."
The only crime, in my estimation, is to get in front of the public without putting some real time, thought and rehearsal into your material, whether it be yours or not. Whatever "notes" you choose to sing, just make sure you sing them "on key"...then we all win! |
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Jonathan Pendragon New user 69 Posts |
Orson Welles was asked by a newspaper reporter how he wanted to be remembered: "Mr Welles, you have been an actor, a writer, a director, and a producer; a hundred years from now, when people look back on your career, by which name do YOU want to be remembered?" Orson replied, "As a magician."
When Shakespeare was writing The Tempest he knew it would be his last play, and so he decided to place a farewell speech among the lines that are spoken by Prospero, the major character. You'll find the speech towards the end of Act IV; it begins "Our revels now are ended...," and includes the much quoted line "We are such stuff as dreams are made on." This is the greatest playwright the world has ever known saying "goodbye" to the thing he loved most in the world. And who gets the honor of giving this speech? Which character? Prospero. And what is Prospero? He is a magician. A magician is someone who is as inherently magical as what they present. Step up onstage and do an effect, bring nothing of yourself to it, evoke no quality that gives the impression that the piece transcends the real world, and what you have is a trick. You are not a magician. Take a coin, stand face to face in front of your audience, smile as you clearly drop the coin from one hand to the other, feel the weight of the coin in your hand, and then on some level notice a change... a quizzical look comes over your face, your fingers begin to rub the center of your palm, as if your ability to grasp the coin is hampered; something is changing, becoming smaller, less substantial, and then it's gone. Your hand opens and there is nothing. You look up into the audience with an expression that says "where?" as much as it says "how?" You have introduced a question: was it pure sleight of hand, or did I actually dissolve that coin magically in my palm until it was no more? It's as much an acting job as a manipulative job, and it differentiates the thinking between someone who does tricks and someone who does magic. The term "magician" is subjective. There are many people who are called "magicians," but not by me. (As for what I am called by others... one can only imagine.) We in magic have spent centuries doing everything we can to make our self-imposed titles as nebulous as possible. So when the time comes for us to absolutely define them, it makes it difficult. I suggest we don't. Instead, let's consider the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius: "This thing, what is it in itself, in its own constitution? What is its substance and material? And what its causal nature (or form)? And what is it doing in the world?" |
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noble1 Special user 651 Posts |
Part of the "talk down to others" problem for magicians isn't just with other magicians. Some have this condescending problem in front of their laymen audiences which is often perceived by others. We can only guess as to which pro inspired that old Jerry Seinfeld observation about a magician, that goes something like this: "Watch, here's a coin, now it's gone... You're a jerk."
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Jonathan Pendragon New user 69 Posts |
I learned about the trap of the condescending attitude from Harry Anderson, using a coin to illustrate the point, in the late 1960s. Harry's philosophical view of the magician was something he had developed before he was 20.
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Nickle New user 34 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-21 05:23, Jonathan Pendragon wrote: Yep! |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-21 11:50, Jonathan Pendragon wrote: Would you share this story with us?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Bryan Gilles Inner circle Northern California 1732 Posts |
Wow... Now this topic is headed exactly where I was hoping it would- into the deeper philosophical discussion.
As I've mentioned many times before, my intent was not to call out someone on their comment but raise the question about the "elitist attitude" of talking down to others... I'm glad so many have chimed in on this. At first, I was really upset that I pi$$ed of Chris Kenner as I consider him a influential performer and friend with a wealth of information. Noble1 said it best- "You don't have to agree with every single thing a person says in order to admire their talent or be their friend." Such is the case. We've had other notable "namesakes" chime in as well. It's really cool to see where everyone stands on the subject. Thank you all for digging at the scab that often tarnishes our social circles within magic- whether it be at conventions, clubs, or other magic gatherings- and hopefully unearthing some of the more controversial standpoints from various levels of "magic performing careers" and within our tiny magic community. ~Bryan |
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Kevin Fortin New user 90 Posts |
Just last night I finished reading Steve Pressfield's "The War of Art". It was a stimulating read which gave me some new insights, but I don't mean this as an appeal to authority and in fact, I might not even have anything cogent to say. I don't completely agree with everything he wrote, but I am not a fixèd star, nor even a wandr'ing tatterdemalion although that does sound pleasantly shambly.
He had a few small chapters on hierarchy, about the concern with one's rank and niche within whatever group, which might have evolved as interdependency might have helped general let alone individual survival, and about the fear of being shunned and cast out as a hindrance to self-expression and being oneself. It might just be bred into us, never mind how much we intend to disregard hierarchy and sprout as little flowers in the cosmic garden. Still, one might understand that some are more sensitive to matters of hierarchy at this moment or that of the putative blossom. Humanity is the potpourri simmering on the stove of the earth. Vaguely yet inauthoritatively, K |
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