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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » For the Vegan Who Has Everything Except a Double-Double... (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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LobowolfXXX
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"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Erwin
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This isn't a criticism, I genuinely don't understand:- why would a vegetarian want to eat something that's 'pretending' to be meat? Veggie burgers, veggie sausages, veggie bacon, veggie mince... I don't get it.
LobowolfXXX
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Because it tastes good.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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I agree. I'm a meat eater but I eat a lot of vegetarian dishes that taste really good. I love black bean burgers.
And those Morning Star veggie corndogs, while not healthy by any stretch, still have half the calories of the regular kind and I can't tell the difference in taste.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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Erwin
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Of course. But my question is specifically about the meat substitute products. If you don't want to eat meat, why eat a product that imitates meat?

And is the nice taste of these products the same taste as meat?
critter
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I can't speak for the vegans, because I aren't one, but the Chik'n nuggets taste the same to me. As do the corn dogs.
Soy bacon is nasty to me though. There's no fakin' bacon.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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balducci
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"double meat, double cheese, no animal products"

If there are no animal products, where does the meat and cheese come from?

Anyway, I saw the topic title "double-double" and I assumed this thread was about something else.

As did several other Canadians, no doubt. Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7TH557IMt8
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-03-22 17:30, Erwin wrote:


And is the nice taste of these products the same taste as meat?

Welllll . . . the not so dirty secret is, it's not. And you'll be sorely disappointed if you thought it would. But they still taste good. (And if it makes you any happier, it doesn't necessarily mean they are any healthier for you either--they can still be full of fat and sugar and salt. You have to look at the labels.)
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-03-22 17:30, Erwin wrote:
Of course. But my question is specifically about the meat substitute products. If you don't want to eat meat, why eat a product that imitates meat?

And is the nice taste of these products the same taste as meat?


While some vegetarians/vegans share the view suggested by your first question, it seems to be a minority opinion within the community. Those who choose the v/v lifestyle for moral reasons (as opposed to ethical reasons) generally do so because they're opposed to the harming of animals for consumption; since those products don't involve the harming of animals, the question becomes (for most of us), why WOULDN'T you?

More definitively, for those of us who were not born into v/v-ism, we all have our favorite non-v/v foods from back before the change...so it's nice to have the substitutes available. Moreover, it can be a good selling point for those who are considering changing over, but have the "Yeah, but I could never give up ______" mentality. Or as I put it when discussing the point on a vegan website, if you want to convince a potential convert, you don't do it by telling him that kale tastes better than corn dogs; you take him to Hugo's tacos and get him a soy chorizo burrito.

The substitutes vary quite a bit with respect to how closely they approximate the food they're substituting. Some are indistinguishable; some aren't too close, and some are really close. As a general rule nowadays, the vast majority are at least very close and getting closer all the time. How many of the good substitutes are available really depends a lot on where you live, though. I wouldn't expect to be able to find a good fake Reuben sandwich in most places in Texas; where I live, I'm pretty close to a half dozen places that have great ones.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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I read something the other day about how products advertised as being 'organic' often really are not.

So how does one know that essence of beef broth is not being snuck into that vegan ground 'beef'?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-03-22 17:47, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-03-22 17:30, Erwin wrote:


And is the nice taste of these products the same taste as meat?

Welllll . . . the not so dirty secret is, it's not. And you'll be sorely disappointed if you thought it would. But they still taste good. (And if it makes you any happier, it doesn't necessarily mean they are any healthier for you either--they can still be full of fat and sugar and salt. You have to look at the labels.)


I'm surprised it's that bad in your neck of the woods. There are quite a few products/dishes that are indistinguishable around here. I could take a committed omnivore out to eat to a different place for quite a while before getting something he'd be able to distinguish from the real thing, let alone be sorely disappointed by.

Agree on reading the labels, but for the most part, the fake meats are pretty good low-fat sources of protein.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-03-22 17:52, balducci wrote:
I read something the other day about how products advertised as being 'organic' often really are not.

So how does one know that essence of beef broth is not being snuck into that vegan ground 'beef'?


Good question...companies and restaurants vary in reputation. Fortunately, we have some good operatives.

http://www.quarrygirl.com/2009/06/28/und......aurants/
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Erwin
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Thanks Lobo that's a great answer.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-03-22 17:53, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-03-22 17:47, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-03-22 17:30, Erwin wrote:


And is the nice taste of these products the same taste as meat?

Welllll . . . the not so dirty secret is, it's not. And you'll be sorely disappointed if you thought it would. But they still taste good. (And if it makes you any happier, it doesn't necessarily mean they are any healthier for you either--they can still be full of fat and sugar and salt. You have to look at the labels.)


I'm surprised it's that bad in your neck of the woods. There are quite a few products/dishes that are indistinguishable around here. I could take a committed omnivore out to eat to a different place for quite a while before getting something he'd be able to distinguish from the real thing, let alone be sorely disappointed by.



It's been 25 years since I've eaten meat, so maybe I've forgotten. But most New Yorkers on whom I've foisted tofu pups are more skeptical. What does seem to be a big hit with omnis are the Chinese food meat analogs--we've got a number of Chinese Vegetarian restaurants that serve mock duck and beef, and the results are very tasty and agreeable to omnis.

BTW, I'm not clear on your distinction between moral v's and ethical v's.
LobowolfXXX
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Moral/ethical was the fingers going much faster than the brain (not at all unusual for me). I meant moral as a opposed to health.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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We had a Vietnamese restaurant here that had this vegetarian sausage that looked like cat turds but tasted just like sausage. It was awesome. Unfortunately they were in the cursed barn and no business survives there.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
seadog93
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I want to mention three things

1) That looked REALLY good!
I eat free range meat and fish, but I am primarily vegetarian. I eat vegan products now and then... they are often very good.

2)agreeing with Critter, morning star corndogs are great!
I worked in a grocery store at the time, but was not at all vegetarian. I grabbed a box on my break and at them without noticing that they were vegetarian, I was shocked when my co-worker mentioned it!

3) my dad and stepmom growing up were on again off again vegetarians and my wife is a vegetarian. All have them have told me "____(fill in the blank)____ tastes just like meat!" They are always wrong, they just can't remember what meat tastes like. Vegetarian food is very yummy, but it doesn't taste like meat (with the sometime exeption of Mornin Star corndogs Smile ).
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-03-22 21:42, seadog93 wrote:
I want to mention three things

1) That looked REALLY good!
I eat free range meat and fish, but I am primarily vegetarian. I eat vegan products now and then... they are often very good.

2)agreeing with Critter, morning star corndogs are great!
I worked in a grocery store at the time, but was not at all vegetarian. I grabbed a box on my break and at them without noticing that they were vegetarian, I was shocked when my co-worker mentioned it!

3) my dad and stepmom growing up were on again off again vegetarians and my wife is a vegetarian. All have them have told me "____(fill in the blank)____ tastes just like meat!" They are always wrong, they just can't remember what meat tastes like. Vegetarian food is very yummy, but it doesn't taste like meat (with the sometime exeption of Mornin Star corndogs Smile ).


Depends where you're going and what you're eating. Let me know if you're ever going to be in Southern Cal...I've got good money that says I could stump you in a blind taste test.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
seadog93
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Really!? Okay, it's a plan.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
stoneunhinged
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An interesting thread for me, since I'm still in the process of contemplating "conversion", as Lobo put it.

I love meat, and will surely miss it. Erwin seems to have assumed that vegetarians don't like meat. I think Lobo cleared that up, but this whole thread got me to thinking along slightly different lines than in my own vegetarian thread.

IF I could offer you all of you ALL the foods you like to eat, but somehow magically produce those foods without ever harming a single animal (say, in a replicator ala Star Trek TOS), would you switch to a vegetarian diet? I think most (though not all) would. We don't really truly want animals harmed. We just like meat. Period.

See, I have lately had an astonishing idea: the ONLY reason that vegetarianism is not the most popular diet in the world is because people like to eat meat. The ONLY reason that not all vegetarians are not vegans is because most of them like animal products.

Now, those statements may seem obvious, but they are not.

We like meat, so we either justify its consumption somehow or we ignore its source. Just last night I was telling my music partner Hans about the Foer book, and at some point he indicated he wasn't interested. Now I, still in the typical rush I get into when thinking seriously about something, was a bit confounded. Was I boring him? His answer--which non-plussed me--was, "I'm not interesting in some guy [he meant Foer, not me, I think] telling me I can't eat meat." Hans simply doesn't want to know where the meat comes from. He doesn't want to hear facts or statistics or arguments. He simply likes meat, and that's that.

I think Hans is typical. But that is surprising. If I could prove to you that the food in front of you at your next meal was made from re-cycled pig-****, would you eat it? If I could prove to you that it was absolutely stuffed with salmonilla, campylobacter, anti-biotics, and rotting fecal matter, would you eat it? If in fact that piece of meat on your plate were secretly taken from road-kill so mashed up that the original animal was unidentifiable, would you eat it?

Probably not, but at least one of those three could very well be true about your next meal.

Yet Hans is completely oblivious to the methods of modern meat production. He just doesn't care.

So back on topic, my fantasy (and it's just a fantasy) is that the billions of dollars spent on creating industrial methods for putting meat on our tables would have been spent on developing ecological, plant-based alternatives to meat and animal products that could be indistinguishable from the real thing in almost every instance--including my personal holy grail of fried chicken.

So back to Erwin's question of why a vegetarian would want to eat meat-substitutes, might I turn the question on its ear and ask this?

Why would a meat-eater continue to eat meat if there were a healthier, animal-friendlier, environmentally-friendlier, indistinguishable substitute?

Hans would say, "I like meat", and wouldn't even try the vegan double double. I myself am craving one as I type this. For me, any viable substitutes are more than welcome. Right now I'm looking for them.
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