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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » For the Vegan Who Has Everything Except a Double-Double... (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Erwin
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On 2011-03-23 08:06, stoneunhinged wrote:
Erwin seems to have assumed that vegetarians don't like meat.


My assumption was that vegetarians find eating meat objectionable because they don't want to consume the flesh of another animal; my confusion was how this ethical position stands alongside the consumption of faux-meat products indicating a craving for flesh.

The acknowledgement of a vegetarian's desire for meat being suppressed for ethical reasons and being at least partially sated by faux-meat products I get.
landmark
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Why would a meat-eater continue to eat meat if there were a healthier, animal-friendlier, environmentally-friendlier, indistinguishable substitute?

For some meat-eaters--please, I said some, as in not all or even possibly many--that's exactly why. Or so they would say.
magicfish
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Mother Nature made us omnivores, hence the mixture of incisors and molars and the two front-facing eyes,and the single stomach. vegans think she was immoral. boy are they wrong. there is nothing more perfect on this earth than nature- and guess what? I'm not so arrogant that I think nature made a mistake. take your place at the top of the food chain. don't be afraid. eat meat. its how your brain developed enough to be able to ponder its consumption. its also how you are able to speak. and have internet. and type. yes that's right.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-03-23 18:52, magicfish wrote:
Mother Nature made us omnivores, hence the mixture of incisors and molars and the two front-facing eyes,and the single stomach. vegans think she was immoral. boy are they wrong. there is nothing more perfect on this earth than nature- and guess what? I'm not so arrogant that I think nature made a mistake. take your place at the top of the food chain. don't be afraid. eat meat. its how your brain developed enough to be able to ponder its consumption. its also how you are able to speak. and have internet. and type. yes that's right.


With higher capability comes higher responsibility. As we've become morally introspective beings, we've discarded quite a few of our other primitive trappings. I'm not sure which vegans you're talking about who think Mother Nature was immoral; I do think most believe that having progressed beyond the necessity of meat consumption, it's not at all inconsistent to reevaluate certain assumptions.

The list of things that our ancestors did that have long been discarded out of principle is enormous. There are probably quite a few things on the list that were good for the species as a whole, too. Fortunately, the "reevaluation" gene has for the most part replaced the "Gee, that's the way we've done it for X number of years" gene. Which is also good for the species.

FWIW, those incisors and molars and that stomach work really well on veggie burgers, too.

As for arrogance...well, everyone has his own definition. I think it could apply at least as well to the notion that it's proper to kill sentient beings simply because they taste good.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
gdw
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On 2011-03-22 17:36, balducci wrote:
"double meat, double cheese, no animal products"

If there are no animal products, where does the meat and cheese come from?

Anyway, I saw the topic title "double-double" and I assumed this thread was about something else.

As did several other Canadians, no doubt. Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7TH557IMt8


Ditto
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
magicfish
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How is it a progression, Lobo? it seems deleting meat from the diet would be progress if there was actually something wrong with eating meat, which of course cannot be.
rod.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-03-23 19:48, magicfish wrote:
How is it a progression, Lobo? it seems deleting meat from the diet would be progress if there was actually something wrong with eating meat, which of course cannot be.
rod.


By "progressed," I mean in the areas of nutrition and food science, such as developments in soy protein, mineral supplements, etc. I don't know, but my suspicion is that someone who decided not to eat any animals or animal products 5,000 years ago would have done so at a risk to his health that is not faced by people making the same choice today.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
gdw
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On 2011-03-23 18:52, magicfish wrote:
Mother Nature made us omnivores, hence the mixture of incisors and molars and the two front-facing eyes,and the single stomach. vegans think she was immoral. boy are they wrong. there is nothing more perfect on this earth than nature- and guess what? I'm not so arrogant that I think nature made a mistake. take your place at the top of the food chain. don't be afraid. eat meat. its how your brain developed enough to be able to ponder its consumption. its also how you are able to speak. and have internet. and type. yes that's right.


Mother nature also gave use arsenic, and diseases, etc.

Also, if we're meant to eat meat, why aren't we good at digesting it raw?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
magicfish
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GDW my young friend, we used to be expert at digesting it raw. lol. then we discovered fire. we evolved. so says your personal message.

Lobo, those who do not eat meat even today face health risks.The inuit peoples of canada consume a diet of 100 percent red meat and and have the lowest risk of heart disease on earth. why? because moose , seal, elk, caribou actually lowers ones cholesterol. please don't make red meat and beef synonymous, although it would be if you stopped hunting and relied on a farmer, which you would never be silly enough to do......... would you?
the health argument is invalid.
Rod
landmark
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There's been a dearth of available elk and seal here lately, and the moose I tied up to the roof rack of my car just woke up in the tunnel, so I'll just have to stick with the angel food cake for now.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-03-23 21:13, magicfish wrote:
GDW my young friend, we used to be expert at digesting it raw. lol. then we discovered fire. we evolved. so says your personal message.

Lobo, those who do not eat meat even today face health risks.The inuit peoples of canada consume a diet of 100 percent red meat and and have the lowest risk of heart disease on earth. why? because moose , seal, elk, caribou actually lowers ones cholesterol. please don't make red meat and beef synonymous, although it would be if you stopped hunting and relied on a farmer, which you would never be silly enough to do......... would you?
the health argument is invalid.
Rod


I think that you misunderstood my point. I wasn't comparing the healthiness of vegetarians vs. non-vegetarians. The comparison I made was between vegetarians today and vegetarians 5,000 years ago. You asked about my use of the word "progressed." We have progressed in the sense that choosing NOT to eat meat is a much more viable option (from a health perspective) than it was in the past.

As for vegetarian diets vs. non-vegetarian diets, both sides have a bunch of experts and studies to "prove" their points.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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One thing's for sure:
I'm sure not going to be shamed into giving up meat.
When I hear I'm "bad" for doing something that I don't really think is bad it makes me defensive. Being defensive doesn't tend to make me very receptive to whatever point is being pushed.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
magicfish
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Lobo, your point is taken. humans today can refrain from meat with much less health risks than in the past thanks to modern science. however, its not enough for me to encourage , nor condone, resisting what you actually are.
Anteaters have snouts and long tongues to get the ants. Birds of prey have exceptional vision and aviation. Loons are expert fishers. Homosapien is perhaps the greatest omnivore. bears are good too. don't mess with perfection.
rod
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-03-23 21:44, critter wrote:
One thing's for sure:
I'm sure as Hell not going to be shamed into giving up meat.
When I hear I'm "bad" for doing something that I don't really think is bad it makes me defensive. Being defensive doesn't tend to make me very receptive to whatever point is being pushed.


I imagine that's true of most people on most issues.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-03-23 21:55, magicfish wrote:
Lobo, your point is taken. humans today can refrain from meat with much less health risks than in the past thanks to modern science. however, its not enough for me to encourage , nor condone, resisting what you actually are.
Anteaters have snouts and long tongues to get the ants. Birds of prey have exceptional vision and aviation. Loons are expert fishers. Homosapien is perhaps the greatest omnivore. bears are good too. don't mess with perfection.
rod


Among our other fine qualities, though, human beings have an apparently unique ability to engage in self-reflection and contemplation and make choices to define for ourselves who we "actually are."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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On 2011-03-23 21:57, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-03-23 21:44, critter wrote:
One thing's for sure:
I'm sure as Hell not going to be shamed into giving up meat.
When I hear I'm "bad" for doing something that I don't really think is bad it makes me defensive. Being defensive doesn't tend to make me very receptive to whatever point is being pushed.


I imagine that's true of most people on most issues.


Yeah, probably Smile
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
magicfish
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No shame in it, Critter. its what you were made to do. Are there any herbivorous primates? perhaps, but not Homo Sapien.
landmark
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Gorillas. They eat mostly plants with the occasional insect side dish.
magicfish
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On 2011-03-24 01:00, landmark wrote:
Gorillas. They eat mostly plants with the occasional insect side dish.

youre off on this one, landmark, gorillas most certainly are omnivores. I guess youve never seen them rip apart a live screaming monkey for a snack... I have.
landmark
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They have the ability to eat small animals but no source I've found calls them anything but herbivores. There are many subspecies and some of these may eat small animals, but not as a regular part of their diet.

This Smithsonian source says:
"Gorillas are primarily herbivorous, eating the leaves and stems of herbs, shrubs, and vines. In some areas, they raid farms, eating and trampling crops. They also will eat rotten wood and small animals."

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/Primat......ault.cfm
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