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Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Oct 21, 2016, tommy wrote:

Only magicians need the trick to succeed every time... Whereas the cardsharp knows if he misses the stack nobody is the wiser. If he misses then he simply plays his hand...It is good if he hits but not bad if he misses. It is a shot to nothing more or less.

That which makes people hesitant is the fear of failing.


Whoa, Whoa. Wait a minute...

Okay...that may apply to missing when stacking but does this also apply if the cardsharp misses on his bottom deal or second deal and ends up with a "hanger?" How about if he drops the deck when bringing in a cooler and it splatters all over the floor?...And...is the fear of failing the same as the fear of getting caught and getting your head busted?

Oh, just joking. Actually it was a good point...but maybe a little too deep for me. Smile
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On Oct 21, 2016, tommy wrote:
Only magicians need the trick to succeed every time and therefore they tend to be must careful and hesitant when staking to make sure of getting it right.

Whereas the cardsharp knows if he misses the stack nobody is the wiser. If he misses then he simply plays his hand. The cardsharp therefore then relaxes and riffle stacks fast and without hesitation. It is good if he hits but not bad if he misses. It is a shot to nothing more or less.

That which makes people hesitant is the fear of failing.


This is only applicable in some situations and not applicable in others. If I'm a single-O poker cheater that can "check my work" when I see my own hand it's one thing. But what if you're a cheating blackjack dealer trying to run up a hand for a partner? And he's already put down that table maximum bet? Now you'd better be sure that your run-up is on the money (or you'll be out of money).

The same goes for ringing in a cooler - better be sure that false shuffle is right - or you might wind up giving the sucker his good hand but destroying your partner's better hand. Seen it happen.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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Even after the stacking has gone awry, all is not lost of course. The failed attempt may still leave the sharps with inside info; of the location of them there valued cards etcetera.

No, you can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometime you find
You get what you need

Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
JFX
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I realized that this thread is already five years old. Just wanted to thank you guys for giving me a great amount of advice over the years!
Helped (and still does) me a lot.

New Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRDN_8AvI7c

My take on the classic
- Blind Riffle I. To Retain The Top Stock
- Blind Cut III. To Retain the Top Stock
- Blind Cut I. To Retain Bottom Stock
Artie Fufkin
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Your progress in these past five years, and your determination to stick with the craft has been impressive Joey!

Your chops are clearly top notch, and your desire to share your accomplishments are undertaken humbly and with class!
AMcD
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It's because he has the good teachers. How sad they're not "pros".
Cagliostro
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Excellent work Joey and exceptional dedication. Your accomplishments are an inspiration to many on this BB.

Five years. Where does the time go?
JFX
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Quote:
It's because he has the good teachers. How sad they're not "pros".

You're most definitely a pro in many areas.
JFX
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New Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSIlTzy_Kqs
(Two different push off second deals)
Cagliostro
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Very skillful demonstration JFX and you certainly have the hands and dedication to master these moves, in the context in which you are showing them, in a highly proficient manner. And that is really all you need...but...are you open to an additional challenge...

Two things you might want to play with and I would not suggest this if you were just a run of the mill demo guy.

In actual money games nowadays, paper playing cards in pristine demo condition are not the norm. Today almost all money games, at least poker games, are dealt with bridge sized cards with white borders. (In fact, years ago when playing Gin with Stuey Ungar, he would not play unless plastic cards were used.)

So...have you ever tried to perform your second and bottom deal (bottoms possibly without the Erdnase Grip which is just good for demos), with these type plastic cards because that is a more realistic protocol, or at least doing so for your own amusement?

Secondly, smoothly and continuously pitching the cards a short distance away into a heap is just fine for what you are doing, or with your bottom deal "placing" the cards in individual hands in close proximity to your body. However, in an actual game the conditions are somewhat different...sometimes considerably different.

On a regulation poker table, either round or elongated, it is very difficult to reach each player at different positions and distances by holding the cards close to one's body. One usually cannot smoothly deal each card off the deck continuously and to different distances that way. Usually one must reach to the front and to either side, and also extend one's hands to get to each player. Also, the smooth uninterrupted rhythm is usually broken up as you go around the table, a slight pause here or there as the hands are re-positioned a little to reach the next player. If one doesn't do that, the cards may flash, bounce or not land where you want them to.

I recall years ago I used to practice that way because there were chips, drinking glasses, maybe a bottle of booze on the table (in private games) and one had to get around these impediments. Of course, in casino type professional games many impediments are not allowed but still the distances are not pristine and one has to reach, extend, pause and so on. Also, in high stakes private games, either dealt by the players or more likely nowadays by a "hired" center dealer, you often will see drinking glasses, a wallet, paper money and so on sitting on the table by the player and you have to deal over or to the side of that.

By mentioning these things I am not in any way criticizing your demonstration work. It is excellent but thought you might want to play with these ideas for your own amusement.

Finally, I suggest for those who are very skillful demonstrators, like Joey, AMcD, Jason and also others on this BB that have not shown their work, I don't think calling them "demo" guys really does justice to their ability and accomplishment. Therefore I suggest new terminology for the "elite" of the demo world. For the truly skillful I suggest we use the term "demologist" and the art they practice "demology," giving it more of a professional air. In fact, I am thinking of contacting the Merriam Webster Company to suggest they add this updated terminology to the next addition of their dictionary.

Just a suggestion...and the world keep spinning and so do I...
JFX
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Cag,

I appreciated your thoughts alot. Thanks for the input.

Quote:
Today almost all money games, at least poker games, are dealt with bridge sized cards with white borders. (In fact, years ago when playing Gin with Stuey Ungar, he would not play unless plastic cards were used.)

I was aware that it is common to use plastic cards instead of paper cards. But I wasn't aware of the fact that bridge sized cards are used for poker. Is there any reason for that?
Regardless, the main reason I don't use plastic cards for the demos (and for my practice routine) is that I don't possess any. However, it is definitely on my list. The way I practice nowadays is by using a brand new deck, a completly worn out deck and a fairly broken in deck. I found that the condition of the deck plays a huge role for some of the moves I do, so I try to use decks in different conditions and from different brands. I will definitely add plastic cards once I got around to buy some.

Quote:
(bottoms possibly without the Erdnase Grip which is just good for demos)

Would you mind to elaborate a bit more on that part? Particularly why the (modified) Erdnase Grip is just good for demos? I've seen Forte use the Grip a lot and refering to a quite old post from Gambling Spot, it was mentioned that the modified Erdnase Grip is actually Forte's favourite grip to use.

Quote:
Secondly, smoothly and continuously pitching the cards a short distance away into a heap is just fine for what you are doing, or with your bottom deal "placing" the cards in individual hands in close proximity to your body. However, in an actual game the conditions are somewhat different...sometimes considerably different.

This has been mentioned to me before. I believe it was silverking who told me the exact same thing (actually in this thread). The main problem is that I have only a limited amount of space. So unfortunately I simply got not enough space for a large table or a full size poker table. I'm aware of the fact that things are quite different in reality though. What I am doing however is to practice dealing and shuffling while standing. I usually place a large book in front of me to act like the chip tray. That way I'm forced to shuffle with the cards a bit more away from me. That already makes things somewhat more difficult.

Quote:
By mentioning these things I am not in any way criticizing your demonstration work. It is excellent but thought you might want to play with these ideas for your own amusement.

No worries, I'm always happy to get advice and to apply it whenever I can. I've never seen a casino from the inside (and actually not even from the outside) so my "knowledge" in that regards comes mainly from reading through the old posts on this forum. So I'm more than grateful for any information given by guys like you.
AMcD
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Cag, I play cards for several decades, I never ran across bridge sized cards. Maybe it's US related? Casino related?

Since 2002-2003 I'd say, it's hard to find a place not using plastic cards (brands vary a lot), but poker size. I'm talking about France, Italy, Spain or UK, countries I know the most.

Anyone has a different experience?
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2016, AMcD wrote:

Cag, I play cards for several decades, I never ran across bridge sized cards. Maybe it's US related? Casino related?



As far back as I can remember, both in the California, New Jersey, and Nevada card rooms, even back in my Gardena days, plastic bridge sized cards were standard, usually Kem brand cards. If you watch the big US based tournaments on TV, like WSOP and other tournaments, you will see they use plastic bridge sized cards.

Why that is I don't know. Perhaps because bridge sizde cards are easier for the dealer and players to handle, but that is just a guess on my part. What they use in Europe, our European members would know better than I and perhaps some could post as to what is used in their area.

Be curious what size and brand of cards tommy uses in his card room or has seen in his area.
tommy
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No bridge sized cards are standard for poker in casinos here Arnold.

And only a flat would call himself a professional; those who know call themselves mere hobbyists.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/A......445.html
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
MarcoLostSomething
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@AMcD:
in Italy we're using Modiano, or Dal Negro 99.9% of any game (that is not played at the bar tables). The fun fact is that I've never payed attention to that detail but yes, they are all plastics (and poker size).

@Joey:
I like the work you putted on the second deal! As always your practice provides much motivation, at least for me. It's never boring to watch, and most of all stresses the importance of hard work to get results, and I'm hoping you are happy of that too.
On the same pace, I've found that grip particularly compelling, and I started to try that since some previous video of yours from some week ago.
Anyway my own method is purely based on my observation of the grip, so I've got a lot work to do for someone who dealt seconds (pushoff) just from the Erdnase's grip.

I'll open my own thread not to go off-topic here, but I think that grip is worth studying, I've noticed it's used quite a lot amongs people playing cards. Again, it's a detail that I've never payed attention to, so used to see mechanics' grip and Erdnase's, I'll put some work into that.

Will you work on the strike too?
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2016, JFX wrote:

I was aware that it is common to use plastic cards instead of paper cards. But I wasn't aware of the fact that bridge sized cards are used for poker. Is there any reason for that?


As I mentioned above, perhaps the reason plastic bridge sized cards are used universally in the casino cards room in the US is maybe they are easier to handle for the players and dealer. Tommy wrote that bridge sized cards are standard in the casino card rooms in England. What they use in Germany, France or other countries, I don't know. But as I said, if you watch the US based tournaments, you will see bridge sized cards being used.

Quote:
...the main reason I don't use plastic cards for the demos (and for my practice routine) is that I don't possess any. However, it is definitely on my list...


You definitely should pick up a deck or two. I think you will be intrigued by the difference in feel and handling. When I first started working with plastics, they kept spurting and slipping out or my hands and landing on the floor.

Quote:
...Particularly why the (modified) Erdnase Grip is just good for demos? I've seen Forte use the Grip a lot and referring to a quite old post from Gambling Spot, it was mentioned that the modified Erdnase Grip is actually Forte's favourite grip to use...


Professional dealers use the Mechanic's Grip or modified Mechanic's Grip in the hand held casino card games, including poker. None that I have seen use the Erdnase Grip.

Certainly in private games, the Erdnase Grip would be a "heat score" among reasonably sophisticated players. Very few players would naturally hold cards like that. If someone is looking to deal bottoms in a private game, his first rule would be not to attract attention or created suspicion. The Erdnase Grip would wake the dead in many games, but is a good grip for demos.

Forte uses it because he is essentially a "demologist" (demonstrator) and the grip produces a fairly deceptive bottom deal with good cover. But once again, it will bring scrutiny and heat. Even the Mechanic's Grip will bring suspicion in many private games.

Quote:
...I've never seen a casino from the inside (and actually not even from the outside) so my "knowledge" in that regards comes mainly from reading through the old posts on this forum. So I'm more than grateful for any information given by guys like you...


Some day you will not doubt get to see a casino or professional poker game in action. I'm sure it will prove to be interesting and helpful in your mastery of demo work.
Artie Fufkin
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2016, Cagliostro wrote:

You definitely should pick up a deck or two. I think you will be intrigued by the difference in feel and handling.



Everything I could do well with paper cards looked like junk when I tried it with plastic cards.

To be a "completest", one should really practice constantly with both.
AMcD
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@tommy

I'm far from being a casino specialist, but I've always seen poker size plastic cards in casinos here (south of England, the coast).

@Marco

Modiano and Dal Negro plastic are excellent. Very nice feel.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2016, AMcD wrote:
@tommy

I'm far from being a casino specialist, but I've always seen poker size plastic cards in casinos here (south of England, the coast).



Arnold, just curious on this. Did you see plastic poker sized cards in the poker games or on the casino table games? A couple of people in England have told me that in the smaller casinos poker sized plastic cards are used in the BJ shoe games. So I was just was curious if you saw poker sized in the poker games also. Your remark pertained to the "casinos" and it was not clear if that included the casino poker rooms also.
JFX
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@Marco
Thank you for the kind words. Glad my videos provide some motivation to you!
Quote:
Will you work on the strike too?

The strike SD was one of the first moves I learned. I started with a strike from mechanics grip but then switched to the one that Walter Scott used.
However, I like push off SD more than strikes. that's why you don't see it used in my videos nowadays.

@Cag
Thanks for elaborating on the BD grip. Makes sense!
Quote:
You definitely should pick up a deck or two. I think you will be intrigued by the difference in feel and handling. When I first started working with plastics, they kept spurting and slipping out or my hands and landing on the floor.

Any recommendation for a particular brand?
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