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Mike Ince Inner circle 2041 Posts |
I performed a few things for magicians last Thursday after being invited to perform mentalism at a magic club meeting. It was simple to choose what to perform. I asked myself "what would fool me?" and "what has fooled me?". I also chose things that needed development since a magic club meeting is a safe place to fail.
"You can fool all the people some of the time and as far as I'm concerned that's enough to show a profit." - Tom Mullica
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-04-14 22:10, scottsheltonmagic wrote: I sell 7th Sense code in my signature below. Its been seling steadily for about five years. I still sell a few each month. But I don't fool magicians I educate them. Are you saying only a fool would buy some of the crap that's hyped up out there? Then in that case lets find fools to sell drivel too. |
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Vagueli87 New user 24 Posts |
Use a stooge !
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manofcards Regular user 114 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-04-13 12:45, dmoses wrote: For some reason I don't think this will work, but I'm sure there is something in a Vernon book that will fool most magicians. So, I suggest starting there. |
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Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts |
I think fooling a magician works a lot like fooling a layman. You appear to follow a pattern where he knows the result and then show the expected result not to be what you really did.
Two examples with the perrenial classic of manipulative magic, both cups and balls: On Penn and Teller's Magic and Mystery Tour, when they were in Egypt a magician named Karam performed the cups and balls for Teller and blew him away. What he did was show a ball under each cup, apparently performing a sleight as he put the cups back down. The expectation in Teller's mind was that all three balls would now be under the center cup. The sleights were executed in a fashion that would not fool a magician, but looked skillful nonetheless. However, the balls were still under the three cups. The result was a Teller who was laughing and delighted at being fooled. Pete Biro on the Ever So Sleightly board a while back mentioned doing cups and balls for an audience of magicians and slightly flashing the final loads as he loaded the cups. So everyone who was watching knew there were lemons under all three cups. Only when he tipped them over they were empty. When you do magic for laymen, you create a situation where they expect a particular outcome and the wonder and surprise comes from getting a different outcome. Magicians are the same, but they expect different things. Want to fool a magician? Do a hackneyed trick in a way he doesn't expect. Poke a little red hankie in your hand and vanish it without a TT. He'll look for the TT and miss your real method. Eliminate the second most common method, whatever that may be, and you'll have him fooled most of the time. The layman won't likely know that you are doing magic for magicians, but that's okay. Personally, I don't care whether I'm fooled or not. I love watching good performances because that's the best way to improve my own. There are guys out there doing tricks that would not have fooled me when I was new to magic (um, like two years ago...) but their presentations amaze me because they'll get so much magic out of a basic trick. Whit Haydn with his Mongolian Pop Knot, for example. At my local state fair, I saw Roderick Russell do a set of mental magic/mentalism (sort of hard to classify where exactly the line is between them and he was somewhere close to the line) and got so much mileage out of simple moves and great presentations. Much of his performance did not fool me, but all of it entertained me. And that's the point with a performer, isn't it? That said, there's a whole lot of mentalism that blows me away. Even if I don't know the methods, I love seeing people appear to be incontrovertably capable of serious psychic phenomena. I think it was Henry Hay who wrote that real magic happens in the minds of the audience. -Patrick |
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Paul Shirley Inner circle Melbourne, Australia 1206 Posts |
Many ways to fool a magician.... especially when they think that they already know it all... but why would you want to?
Who cares. The same goes for music... the only way that a magician/musician is standing there watching/judging you in the first place is usually because they have the NIGHT OFF!! Lucky guys... I'd love to have a friday/saturday night off to go and check out other acts. Never seems to happen though. |
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Billy-one Inner circle IOWA 1028 Posts |
Im so glad that I got into mentalism so I can be an eletist as well but on a serious note: any well presented mem deck stuff works well as a magician fooler, nowadays! Remember all, this forum is open to people who perform at magic clubs (yuck), family (who know all your magic tricks), and casual "performers" that show tricks to buddies and class mates. When someone (magician or other) asks for help regarding something they care about, you can:
a) help them or b) shut them out. I am never afraid of letting a magician into the workings of mentalism, as that's how I got my start in the feild (thanks Doc Hilford). The fear of more people in the feild seems arrogant and self conscious at the same time. Are "we" afraid to share our secrets becuse the less people know the less competition we have? I know the answers I will get "Its just that magicians add mentalism as a side note to their show", or "Good magicians expose mentalism becuse they don't know how to do it well", or other hyperbole! |
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Billy-one Inner circle IOWA 1028 Posts |
In addition,
Magicians don't want to be fooled, they want to be entertained! Show them something they know but show it to them a way a good mentalist would perform...if you are doing something for a club, just my opinion. |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-04-13 15:58, MichaelCGM wrote: I can't answer for Bob, but I would suggest that mentalism and mental magic both developed out of fraudulent Spiritualism. Some of the methods were original and some were either taken from magic or, for a lack of a better expression, "independently (re-)discovered" through individual ingenuity. I like the term that was used calling mentalism a "sister" art to magic. In answer to a question, there have been and are exclusive stores for mentalists. However, because there are magicians and mental magic performers who will use mentalism effects, and because appealing to the largest audience when trying to sell effects (especially lower priced ones) is a goal of any seller, offering mental effects though magic stores is an obvious choice. Since I have used terms above in specific ways, I'll share my definitions of them. I'm not going to argue that my definitions are "right" in contrast to other definitions. They simply give clarity so people can see where I'm coming from. Your definitions may differ and they will be "right" for you. Magic: the art of entertaining by presenting the illusion that things do not behave the way the laws of physics and logic indicate they should behave. Mentalism: the art of entertaining by presenting the illusion of paranormal phenomena. Mental Magic: the art of entertaining using effects that present the illusion of paranormal phenomena—individually, in small numbers, or as part of a magic show—that give the impression of magic more than the ethos of mentalism. |
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magus Special user Huntington Beach, Ca 669 Posts |
You fool people based on their assumptions.
If you pretend to put a coin in your hand, A lay audience assumes you put the coin in your hand. You just have to do it so that it looks natural. To fool magicians, you use a different set of assumptions. Instead of doing a pass, do two, or pretend to do a pass, and don't. Do a trick they will recognize, but use a different method than the standard move. You just have to do it so that it looks natural. Marlo apprantly had some fun doing color vision for magicians by using several methods that were NOT the usual method. I have seen coin tricks that were done by being two ahead, or one behind, where the usual method was to get one ahead.
crappy deium-
what a lousy day to be seized thaumometer- a device for measuring a magical field |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-04-13 15:58, MichaelCGM wrote: I've written extensively on this, as have others. For starters, I would recommend Ricky Jay's Learned Pigs and Fireproof Women and my own Fundamentals, An Guidebook to Professional Mentalism. Mentalism, as we know it today, basically began with the likes of Jonathan Randall Brown, Washington Irving Bishop, Charles Foster and Bert Reese. They all developed techniques that were outside of traditional conjuring, but that were later appropriated by magicians seeking to capitalize on the growing popularity of these "mind readers" and the so-called psychic phenomena being demonstrated by spiritualists. Good thoughts, Bob |
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Billy-one Inner circle IOWA 1028 Posts |
Mr. Cassidy,
But in the eyes of a layman....magic, mentalism, and even juggeling/clowning are all the same (a novelty act). I try very hard to break that mold, but when I do magic I still get, "oh my kid will love this"! Mentalism is more "grown up", but still in the same genre...should we embrace this as a community and call it for what it is, or try to break the mold? After all, people have already broken the mold of mentalism not being a novely act...they are called psychics. Respect, Billy |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Reread what I wrote, Billy. The question I answered was about the historical origins of mentalism.
Good thoughts, Bob |
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theinternetguru Elite user I hacked the Café but I still only have 426 Posts |
Quote:
Magic: the art of entertaining by presenting the illusion that things do not behave the way the laws of physics and logic indicate they should behave. The distinction is really from the perspective of the audience, not from how we might view this ourselves as those who are "in the know." This is where at least part of the disagreement might lie. Most people in Western culture do not believe in magic (as it is described above), and so (when they see a magician perform) they assume that there is a prop/mirror/sleight involved, even though they might not be able to identify it. They are entertained but they are not lifted to a point where they might think, "That Copperfield has godlike powers!" No matter how good the illusion. In contrast, when people experience mentalism (even performed by someone who disclaims psychic powers from the outset) they are prepared to believe that there are gifts and abilities that cannot be purely explained by Western science. Part of this is made possible by the common religious experience of human beings. The vast majority of people -- including people in Western culture -- believe that existence is not merely physical. Mentalism leverages that, and if the performance does not partake of "magic" (as defined above) but rather consistent examples of such things as mindreading, moving/bending objects with the mind, and predicting the future, the audience is engaged and credulous on a much deeper level. From the perspective of performers, both magicians and mentalists -- we do sleights, we use props, and we know there is a method behind this, that there is not real magic, that the spoon doesn't bend because I am staring at it and willing it to. And the common goal is to "fool" the audience (meaning, to execute an effect to give the illusion of reality without exposing the method -- not to make them feel foolish). So from our perspective, magic and mentalism are obviously closely related. From the perspective of the audience, not necessarily, or at all. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Theinternetguru has stated it well!
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phillsmiff Inner circle UK 1794 Posts |
I have an effect called Grandmaster Easy that I have been developing for a while and it is a real mixed bag as to who it fools - I did it at a lecture and I had a room full of magicians looking at me bug eyed, fooled to bits, and then a couple saying "That is insultingly transparent, why would you ever do that?" Did it for my pals in Leicester, some of whom are extremely well read and knowledgeable, and it crushed them. Did it for Escoffey and Nardi and they just looked at me and said "Where's the trick." I've ironed some of the kinks out, but it remains a curio in that regard, the balancing point of the deception is very fine.
Irrespective of fooling magicians, it fries laypeople, and they are the ones who do the booking. (Incidentally, IMO the reason for having something that fools magicians or mentalists is that many magicians are magic fans, and they enjoy the experience of being completely sunk - I know I do, it refreshes my understanding of why magic is valuable to spectators. Giving a friend that moment can be a nice gift.) All just my opinion of course! Phill
The new Elysian Duets, marked cards featuring my unique Optical Marking System:
-+: https://phillsmithcreative.com/products/elysian-duets :+- |
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Billy-one Inner circle IOWA 1028 Posts |
Story,
I was doing close up for a corporate picnic, a guy keeps following me around (keep in mind this was high level managment type guy) and watching from the "weeds". I notice said guy and ask him if he would like to see some "magic", I generally say sleight of hand but at times when Im in the groove I say magic (old habbit). He, the lurker, said "I would like to see that x, y, and z trick", that he had seen me perform for others. Afterwards, he was very nice and polite, but had this look of perplexity. I figured he was trying to reverse engineer what he had seen, but a few moments later he asked what I knew about Penn and Teller, I replied in my usual form, when someone asks about well known magicians, "They are great, doing really well and are masters of their craft" (or something along those lines). Then I added they where making the show, "Fool Us" and I explained to him the concept of the show "magicians come on the show and try to fool Penn and Teller and then P/T try to figure out how its done. If they fool P/T then they get to open for P/Ts' act". Again, perplexity filled this guys face. A moment passed and I sh*t you not, he asks "So, you guys are really doing something...I mean, its always a trick". THIS dude THOUGHT I was doing ACTUAL magic!! I was blown away and beleive me, the stuff I was doing wasnt exactly life altering material (card stuff). My point? Some westerners beleive in magic. |
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Rocketeer Special user Westchester, NY 965 Posts |
I see the magic/mentalism dichotomy much as as see a couple of other analogous comparisons.
Was Johann Sebastien Bach a classical composer? Was Richard Wagner a classical composer? I think most people would answer yes to both. Yet Johann Sebastien Bach was of the baroque period that preceded the classical period, And Richard Wagner was of the romantic period that came after the the classical period. Are you an animal? Well compared to a trout of a giraffe, no. But if you're playing 20 questions (animal, vegetable or mineral) then you certainly are an animal. It all depends on context and viewpoint. Is a mindreader a kind of magician? From the broadest perspective, yes. Mentalism is branch of magic. Is a mindreader a kind of magician? Well no. They share some common heritage but they are allied, though separate arts. Just my $.02.
I'm selling my hardcover autographed limited edition copy of Jerome Finley's "Thought Veil"
PM me for info. |
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Doc_Z Loyal user New York, NY 229 Posts |
Billy, I'm curious what you said next
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Billy-one Inner circle IOWA 1028 Posts |
Doc,
I said, of coarse....you don't really beleive in magic do you ? |
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