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hypnokid
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Hello

I didn't want to bump a week-old thread so thought I would start a new one.

If you have an idea of why hypnosis works, and can fit it into three or less short paragraphs (going for hand wavy statements rather than the devil in the detail), and are happy to share, then let's have it.

It would also be interesting to know why you think you believe what you do ref hypnosis.

Many thanks

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
hypnokid
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It might be bad form to reply to your own post, but heh.

One of my many questions is does trance exist or was it jus invented by a scientist somewhere? I mean, is it like a philosophy or is it like physics? Is there any proof?

HK
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TonyB2009
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Hypnokid, I would be a firm believer that trance does not exist, outside of being in a coma. Up until a few weeks ago I was of the view that hypnosis itself does not exist, but I have had my eyes opened a bit.

I believe that the key to it is social compliance. People find themselves in a situation and respond to the suggestions through politeness and a desire not to be awkward. But there seems to be a bit more to it than that; at some point their compliance becomes automatic. They stop thinking they will play along, and begin responding automatically to the suggestions. At that point you have hypnosis.

I don't believe you ever have trance. I have seen no evidence for it in more than a decade of doing this. I know that will be controversial, but I am not saying it to get up anyone's nose. It is my genuine belief, and it has not limited my performance of hypnosis.
mindpunisher
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Isn't social compliance just a fancy term for trance? To be honest Tony most people don't think they are playing along most think they have been hypnotised. that's my experience anyway. And the ones that say they were playing along are lucky if they remember 20% of what they supposedly played along to. I believe those people can't admit they were under the control of someone and claim they played along.

Coma and Trance have no connection so Im not sure why you bring the two together. I really think like most people who don't believe in trance you have the wrong idea of what it is in the first place. I don't believe in whatever you think it is either...

Now you have had an eye opener or should it be eye closer? Just goes to show you cannot base reality on your experience alone. Since reality has now been modified for you. Its possible that reality is even more skewed than you first thought.

I also get the feeling that you enjoy being a contranarian and its one of your "metaprogrammes" the way you filter reality.

that's the big problem with being a "hypnotist" who earned from a book. You don't have enough personal experience to really understand what it is you are supposed to be.

You should seek more training your eyes will be opened a LOT more.
TonyB2009
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MP, I hate to say it but you may be right. And I do agree that most people don't think they have been playing along. That's the weird thing - they feel a compulsion to do what you tell them. But I don't believe any altered state is involved. They can be wide awake and feel the compulsion, as I did when I was hypnotised recently. It was a bizarre feeling, but I was fully in the room and able to chat and discuss what was going on, even though I couldn't change what was happening. So in that sense I was not in a trance.
mindpunisher
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There is a clue "they can be wide awake" as opposed to asleep or comatized? Its a clue that the construction you have for what trance is---isn't what trance really is.

Consider the following Happy love vs angry hate.... These are two "states" and opposite ends of the spectrum. There are dozens of states in between ,, indifference, enthusiastic,bemused, curious,elatated,confident,unconfident etc etc etc...

These are ALL undeniable states but none of them would cover the "state" experienced by those on stage with a hypnotist being highly susceptable to suggestion. An altered sate is simply one of which where we are susceptible to suggestion a place where our senses are turned inwards and our imaginitive faculties are stimulated higher than usual. Its nothing to do with being asleep or out of the box.

Its this "state" that allows suggestion to be of thereaputic value by changing behaviour and attitudes that would otherwise be difficult to move. It is the same "state" that enables volunteers on stage to be in a position whereby they respond to suggestion. And remember different people have different levels of responding. Don't judge the whole of reality by your one experience. There are "somnabulists" that cannot resist the process and will do almost anything you ask them and have no recollection afterwards.

Trance itself is something a litle more subtle. We live in a trance.

For example last night I started my first golf programme. 4 wealthy golfers. One was ready to retire but has problems with freezing on the golf course. After a few questions it becomes clear that his biggest fear is when he retires he won't be able to enjoy golf. Now he live in this problem "trance" 24 hours aday and has done for the last 3 years. And guess what it is also his "reality" he freezes on the course ( used to be a very good player) and he dreads retiring a thing that should be something to look forward to.
Yet he "reahearses" over and over in his mind this awful retirement and this awful problem he has on the course everytime before he plays...

He has no conscious control over these mental programmes NONE whatsoever. He is in a problem "trance"...This all a trance is. We are constantly moving n and out a number of trances each and every day all of us. We are going to build a more appropriate trance for him and install it so he looks forward to his retirement and the problems he has now become nothing but a distant memory...

Yep I deal in designer trances.//

that's what trance really is. Nothing more. You read this post you hear my voice imgane the tonality see my facial expressions. We all do this online to make up for the limitations and missing information in a cold collection of typed in text. Sometimes we carry on the "debates" afterwards in our heads and have to come back to write our reply. These are all trances we go in and out of trance by the very activity of being on here.

However simple it may seem trance dtermines our behaviour what we are willing to do and not do...

Great orators have known this for centuries and are master hypnotists as are great marketers. Its all about trance.
Owen Mc Ginty
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I have to say I agree 100% with Mindpunisher on this one.
I think the social compliance theory is utter bo**ocks. I´ve been willingly hypnotized once, but as I was given the suggestions I felt no pressure to comply and made absolutely no conscious effort to comply.
I almost burst out laughing as I noticed that my body was responding to the suggestions.

I can get people to respond to suggestions (apparently unconsciously) and they are suprised and amazed at their own physical response.... this combined with my own experience makes me believe that people don´t simply consciously respond to avoid making the hypnotist appear to fail.

I think if you believe hypnosis is simply social compliance then you are missing out on the tremendous power that hypnosis as a tool can provide for helping people (change work).

Wether or not trance exists depends on your definition. I personally think it exists, however I reckon trance is a hypnotic phenomenon, and NOT hypnosis = trance.
Some people will slip remarkably easily into trance, but that doesn´t guarantee they will display other hypnotic phenomenon. Plenty of books will give you signs of what the authors consider to be trance.

Whether or not you believe in trance is only important if you make it important. It can be a useful model, but there are many other useful models. No-one invented trance, they just came up with a definition.

Bandler and Grinder mention in one of their books (I can´t remember which one) that they do not pretend to wield the one universal truth, but rather they talk about models and patterns which "work for them". That is not to say they will work for everyone.

I believe what I believe regarding hypnosis because I have taken models and theories and applied them, tested them. I keep what I consider to be useful, and discard models and information which I consider hold me back.

I recommend that you build your beliefs on what you have seen and experienced yourself, not on what other people tell you (yeah ironic me telling you what you should believe whilst at the same time telling you not to believe everything you´re told by others eh?).
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
TonyB2009
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MP, your definition of trance is too broad for me. It is so broad as to be virtually meaningless to me. I see a trance as a distinctly altered state, and I see no evidence for that in hypnosis.
Owen, I have been doing hypnosis for more than a decade, so my views are based on observation. I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe in an altered state. I also have doubts about whether the whole induction process increases someone's suggestibility. I think it is a conscious decision at the start of the process to accept or not accept suggestion. If they consciously decide to accept suggestion, hypnosis results. If they don't, it doesn't. No change in state is necessary.
mindpunisher
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Your a complete waste of time Tony...

I guess I will save it for someone who can benefit. We do very little on a conscious level anyway but Im not even giong to bother. Its obvious you won't be able to get it. Thing is your current trance and perception isn't even a conscious decision its an unconscious programe.

Im curious what you actually think an altered state is..

No on second thoughts spare us..
Dannydoyle
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I would say social compliance is a big componant. I would also say expectation is another very large part.

"Hypnosis" (for the lack of a better term) works for the same reason that money is valuable. Money is valuable because the government says it is and we believe it is. Same with hypnosis. You say it will work and the person believes you.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TonyB2009
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MP, if I am in a trance I don't feel I should be able to engage with the world the way I am doing now. You have a different definition of trance (no less valid than mine, I'm sure) and that is where our difficulty lies. Face to face we probably would agree - but not before scoring a few points off each other! Cheers.
mindpunisher
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I can't be arsed with scoring points no more on here that's old and lost its appeal. It was fun for a while though. I was trying to share something with you. And the things that can be done with hypnosis when you adopt some of the more subtle theories and definitions. And not just stage or performance hypnosis. To be honest they no longer hold any fascination for me only a means to make money should the right opportunity arise.

Obviously its what you want to get out of it but I would get more "experiences" like the one you had with Ant through training or whatever it may well change your views.
bobser
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I found these arguments interesting many years ago, then boring as I rolled with what I knew and what I experienced.
I find them entirely fascinating now. And that's because I suspect that everyone might be correct.
I don't think hypnosis is one dimensional. Rather it's on a vast spectrum with lots of parts linked and maybe even unlinked yet racing to the same sweet spot.
I think all your arguments might be like many tributaries, totally different yet all heading towards the same massive river.
At this point in time I'm in love with Tony's arguments. I completely GET IT. He's simply reporting what happened. He was approached (in a hypnotic class) and didn't want to seem bad mannered, liking the approacher and deciding to kinda' go along (no harm done). Hence we have a form of social compliance (no sign of trance). BUT at some point he consciously decides "no". And discovers that he's in some kind of strange loop (my words) where he 'obeys' the hypnotist. I don't like the word obey but it seems to fit perfectly. Indeed arguably 'wants' to obey.
But although I'm comfortable with this (he went through it and is not lying), I can see other ways, based on MY experience, that others fall into this same stuff. This is NOT simple. Nobody knows ALL about this. But to learn I think you 'have to be' open to others' experiences and explanations.

In closing although I'm happy that trance is NOT necessary for hypnosis I am also happy that I have observed many many times where it is in fact fully operational. No doubt in any way shape or form. Sooooo..... I have no idea why some of you guys argue with each other that your belief is the only one. I just don't get it!!!
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Owen Mc Ginty
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Nobody knows ALL about this.


Bang on Bobser!
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
TonyB2009
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Bob, you hit the nail on the head. MP, I am open to new experiences and to changing my view if the new experiences warrant it. In the last few weeks there has been a fairly radical (from my point of view) change in my opinion about what's going on. Keep throwing out the pearls of wisdom. The ground is not as fallow as you might imagine.
mindpunisher
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>>>>I don't think hypnosis is one dimensional. Rather it's on a vast spectrum with lots of parts linked and maybe even unlinked yet racing to the same sweet spot.
I think all your arguments might be like many tributaries, totally different yet all heading towards the same massive river.
At this point in time I'm in love with Tony's arguments. I completely GET IT. He's simply reporting what happened. He was approached (in a hypnotic class) and didn't want to seem bad mannered, liking the approacher and deciding to kinda' go along (no harm done). Hence we have a form of social compliance (no sign of trance). BUT at some point he consciously decides "no". And discovers that he's in some kind of strange loop (my words) where he 'obeys' the hypnotist. I don't like the word obey but it seems to fit perfectly. Indeed arguably 'wants' to obey.<<<<<

that's my whole point Tony's experience has changed his view. There has been a modification in one of his unconscious programmes called perception that has now changed forever. It can't go back.

Hypnosis is not one dimensional this has always been the point I have tried to make. You can see your viewpoint from your experiences. If you want an expanded view point you must seek out more expanding experiences. One of the things or ways of thinking I adopted a long time ago was that if someone was getting results or highly regarded in hypnosis NLP whatever I would try and get an experience that allowed me to understand what they were going on about.

Everytime you have one of those experiences its like stepping up to a higher level and when you look around you see a little further.

Those that haven't taken those steps can't see what you can see and that's the frustrating part sometimes. The biggest mistake I believe is to think you have reached the top because I don't think you will ever reach the top.

Especially in hypnosis overt or covert its when you get up a few steps then you realise its the minute subtleties that make the biggest and most profound impact on everything you do.

But that is waybyond stage hypnosis but I can't see how anyone wouldn't want to take that trip....but then maybe I'm just a freak.
Damon Reinbold
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I agree with Bob also. In doing "hypnosis" since the 70's I've found that the best definition is only six or so words long.
It is a direct communication with the subconscious or unconscious mind. What is done with it is the important thing.

regards,
Damon
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<BR>2011 President, IBM Ring 90
mindpunisher
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>>>In closing although I'm happy that trance is NOT necessary for hypnosis I am also happy that I have observed many many times where it is in fact fully operational. No doubt in any way shape or form. Sooooo..... I have no idea why some of you guys argue with each other that your belief is the only one. I just don't get it!!!<<<

There is no fixed definition it is ALL context dependant and what you want to do with it. I switch definitions when doing stage as opposed to working with sales teams. its like putting on different glasses to see what needs to be done.

However the most "useful" definition I have ever tried on is that hypnosis is the process of guiding natural trance. Trance is natural constant and always present. You switch one for another. Your reality is dependant upon what trance you happen to be in at any moment.

When you try that definition on and study the princible that go with it a whole new world opens up and whats possible explodes.

Somebody comes to you with a problem you start to hear the words they use that give you clues to how they are creating the current trance since most problems are just a mental construct a programme or a "trance". They seem real and the very fact they are being lived in creates real results. But in realty they can be changes modified or swapped for a compltely different reality. And there goes the client out into the world operting from a different place automatically generating different results.

What many hypnotists think of as hypnosis or a trance is really just a doorway a bridge from one trance to another..

At least that's the definition that serves me the best for what I use it for.
Shikina
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However the most "useful" definition I have ever tried on is that hypnosis is the process of guiding natural trance. Trance is natural constant and always present. You switch one for another. Your reality is dependant upon what trance you happen to be in at any moment.


I find that to be a really intriguing perspective. MP, where can I learn more about hypnotic techniques that incorporate that point of view?
Owen Mc Ginty
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I think that´ll be a useful idea to bear in mind whatever techniques you´re learning about Smile
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
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