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mindpunisher
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There is no point debating it. I only say that the the model I subscribe to gives a lot of possibilities which I have "proved" to myself over the years. For "me" it is the main model I use. It allows you to see the hypnotic process as an ongoing everyday occurance that allows you to tap into and makes changes. I have found over the years that there is a general idea what hypnosis is amongst hypnotists. But its in the subtle shifts big results come. Its that model that enables me to get those results.

However I use a different model for stage work and shift between them.

It depends on what you are aiming to achieve.

A model is just a model.

Reason why I said "social compliance is just a fancy name for a trance". It really is just a model that tries to explain the same thing using different terminology and a different point of view.
Anthony Jacquin
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Quote:

Reason why I said "social compliance is just a fancy name for a trance". It really is just a model that tries to explain the same thing using different terminology and a different point of view.


No it isn't. One is a state based model the other a social model.
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IAIN
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How many hypnotists does it take to change a lightbulb?
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mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2011-04-25 18:00, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
Quote:

Reason why I said "social compliance is just a fancy name for a trance". It really is just a model that tries to explain the same thing using different terminology and a different point of view.


No it isn't. One is a state based model the other a social model.


That's what I said two different viewpoints....

Hypnosis is fundamentally the process of learning not understanding. Which deals with the unconscious and states. We learn through states, we understand through "logic". Social compliance tries to explain "understand" as far as I can see.

To have a model that doesn't include states is silly because we constantly move from one state to another and millions of shades in between. States determine behaviour and performance. It was changing someone state that enabled them to play the best golf they ever have in 30 years of playing. Which created another state.

But hey its your choice choose what models floats your boat. I know which ones I find most useful.

Even social compliance can be explained to a certain degree by the avoidance of negative states or feelings.

Social compliance is one model that has its place and uses. It just doesn't have its uses in the work that I do. And it doesn't explain fully the stage phenomena.

Social compliance is just another label that groups a few theories together and like any other.

Like I said depends what your outcomes are. If it fits yours then fine.
hypnokid
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The results don't prove your theory. Trance could just be a metaphor for how hypnosis works. If you are happy with a metaphor then fine, but I don't think any amount of golf proves it.

As for the car, most drive okay but few end up as racing drivers. I want to be the fastest driver (best hypnotist) so I think understanding how it works might be important.

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
Owen Mc Ginty
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It would appear that you can use whatever model(s) make sense to you, but there is no one, single, universal truth regarding how hypnosis works.

Allow me to refer to the old story of three blind men who each describe an elephant by touching it.

One touches the tail
One touches the trunk
One touches the tusk

Maybe I haven´t got the parts of the elephant right, but you get the idea.
Three very different impressions of the same "animal". I suspect that ultimately, your own "impressions" of hypnosis based on your own experiences (hey, study models, apply them, and reach your own conclusions) will be what serves you best.
If you´re looking for a "how it works" in exact terms comparable to something like a description of say, how an internal combustion engine works based on scientific principles which cannot be disproven, then I´d say you´re wasting your time.
Although I´d also love to be proven wrong Smile

It looks to me like we´re all correct (in our own heads, and until we change our minds Smile)
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Anthony Jacquin
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Owen,

the question was how does it work. Not what model do you use. You suggested searching for how might be a waste of time but said you would love to be proven wrong. I assume that means you too are interested in how it works, regardless of whether you are interested in the search. If that is the case then understanding that social compliance and trance are distinctly different theories rather than 'a fancy name for the same thing' would be useful. They represent the extreme ends of two fundamentally opposite camps of thinking. There are of course others somewhere between the two.

If you do not believe it is a trance you can bin the induction and deepening for a start. For some of us this is liberating. That does not mean we believe it is just playing along.

Anthony
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bobser
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Anthony said:
Quote:
"If you do not believe it is a trance you can bin the induction and deepening for a start. For some of us this is liberating. That does not mean we believe it is just playing along.


The above paragraph is fundamental to understanding what all of this is about. If anyone doesn't get that then they're racing toward a cul-de-sac.

However, strangely enough, there IS an argument against it. And that argument is just too intellectual I feel, at this present time. However I shall hold it in abeyance until we meet again Mr. Jacquin (assuming that is your REAL name?)
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
hypnokid
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You holding out on us bobser? Come on, if you've got an argument against that then let's here it; we're not going to get to any conclusions without the arguments being aired.

HK
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bobser
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I need to tweak 'my find' just a bit. Then I need to construct a wording on how to explain it in a fashion that will be at least partially understood by the proletariate.
Obviously the more clever ones may PM me (you know who you are).
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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Social compliance is another name another label another theory to explain an external event. You can't "bin" trance if you are always in one. In fact social compliance theory is a trance in itself as all theories are.

Explanations are explanations not reality. To have a model that doesn't include states limits you incredibly when you want to move beyond sticking a hand to a table.

I don't know but if that's all you want to do then I guess its liberating.

And Bob if that's what you believe hypnosis is why don't you just tell your clients to get better? Although a few will the vast vast majority won't. Try tell golfers to golf better. They won't.

If social compliance was the only explanation then that would be the case. It isn't...

On stage you don't tell anyone to have amnesia but they do. Social compliance does not explain the full phenomena of hypnosis.

But theres no point arguing and Im not getting paid to teach you so believe what you prefer to believe.

The real truth is nobody knows for sure how hypnosis works. NOBODY
Owen Mc Ginty
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Quote:
And that argument is just too intellectual I feel, at this present time.


limiting belief? Smile

or are you calling us stupid !/? Smile
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bobser
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Not all of you, just you know who
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quicknotist
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HK. You started it! Confused much?

In my opinion, this thread demonstrates that what we as hypnotists believe about hypnosis isn't really all that important. The model that matters most is the one held by the person being hypnotised. (Remember them? They're kind of important in all this!)

In my experience very rarely do you meet someone whose model does NOT include some kind of trance/state, so most of us who deal with people (outside of the field of education) will simply utilise and work with this. That way we can get on with the job of entertaining or "fixing" issues without having to re-educate them or the audience.

(If this wasn't the case, then hypnotists who are educated in state theory or those who believe everyone is simply playing along just wouldn't ever be successful.)

Now, as soon as you begin to demonstrate the "easiest" of phenomena WITHOUT trance, or indeed talk about trance not being necessary, what you're actually doing is influencing and manipulating that model a wee bit, effectively re-educating them, just a little.

I say "influencing and manipulating that model a wee bit ... just a little" as opposed to "changing" it, because even after demonstrating that trance isn't necessary, delivering the suggestion "Sleep" MOSTLY results in them reverting to their own deeply rooted model: They instantly close their eyes and go all floppy AND they go "deeper" when you suggest that too. (And I for one am grateful for that, because it makes multiple volunteers on stage a whole lot easier to manage!)

I'm prepared to accept those who didn't hold that model in the first place won't, but the truth is, I hardly ever meet them. (Tony, maybe?)

Most of the time I see no point in re-educating, influencing or manipulating the model of the volunteers/subjects or audience, but I do dabble in it occasionally.

That's why I teach "Never tell them hypnosis isn't what they think. On some level, it's EXACTLY what they think." After all, it's just easier that way.

As MP says "The real truth is nobody knows for sure how hypnosis works. NOBODY"
So everybody is wrong and at the same time everybody is right.
Shikina
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Getting back to Mindpunisher's trance-based view of (for lack of a better term) reality, I'd like to understand better how that answers the question of "why does hypnosis work?"

An example might clarify my source of confusion. Say that in the course of my day I'm navigating between trance states, each one invoking some different cognitive frame. So say I'm driving on my way to work and thinking about the wonderful weekend I just had. I'm in a peaceful trance, and the car driving slow in front of me is just another object on the road. But suddenly a song on the radio which I associate with aggressiveness or anger comes on the radio. I'm jostled into road-rage trance (forgive my very un-NLP use of nomenclature) and now the car in front is vested with a different set of meanings and urgency, and I find that rather than being a mild distraction, his presence on the road is infuriating to me.

Now assume a hypnotist can guide me through those states, without me actually having to be in a car and on the road. One moment he/she says the things that put me into peaceful trance (with it's associated symbols and meanings) and the next second I'm put into the rage trance (with it's particular meanings). That's simple enough to wrap my head around. But that still seems to be a far way's away from the kind of heavier phenomenon we often associate with hypnosis. Meaning, at no point in my car trance do I experience the sensation that I can't apply my foot to the brakes for some odd reason; or suddenly discover a regressed memory; of perceive that my car's horn sounds like a chicken; or whatever.

My point is that for some of us (myself included) there is still a 'black box' surrounding the process of heavy hypnosis and how the words; suggestibility tests; deepeners, etc. that we may use, work to produce that particular state. And my sense is that nobody really knows, or else we'd have scientific journals describing the neurological workings with 100% accuracy.
mindpunisher
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We have five senses obviously. But in reality we have more or less 10. What I mean is that we have visual internal and external. We can picture in our minds and we can see picutures in "reality" Its the same with other senses Auditory Internal and External Feelings internal and external ( you can stroke a dog you can also "imagine" what it feels like to stroke a dog). Smells and taste we can do also but not as important in this "explanation".

We can also create constructs. For example I can look across the room and imagine my friend standing there. I can also paint him blue or shrink him in size or give him a strange voice.

In order to do that my internal senses overlap with my external and are projected into reality.

So if we can think of a line. The bottom half is the unconscious the top half is conscious. Our senses are continuously overlapping going up and down crossing over to make "configurations".

When all the senses are under the line and internalised you are in what would be thought of as a hypnotic trance in the usual sense especially when they are way way below the line. If giuded by a hypnotist and compounded with suggestion its possible to create some of the stage phenomena and why we see hallucinations feel certain sensations etc. Because they are constructs created way below the line and are projected into the "real world. In other words in those states we have more awareness of the internal constructs than the external.

If you put someone in a relaxed state or yourself with your eyes closed you "go inside". If there is a loud noise outside your auditory is once again risen towards conscious or even over the line before going back down again. That happenes with all the senses which is why hypnosis isn't a stable state.

Its a bit like a graphic equalizer

That is the theory I find most useful. But no one will know for sure exactly what it is. I doubt any scientific explanation will ever be 100%.
Anthony Jacquin
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Quote:
On 2011-04-27 14:50, mindpunisher wrote:
On stage you don't tell anyone to have amnesia but they do. Social compliance does not explain the full phenomena of hypnosis.



Yes it does. Read the literature. Spontaneous amnesia, and all the other aspects of the phenomenon can be explained by SC theory perfectly adequately.

Anthony
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Owen Mc Ginty
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Reg, I couldn´t agree more. Smile
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mindpunisher
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I guess Ant we just don't agree on this point. I don't think it does. I still have an old episode of Equinox which I haven't watched in a while about hypnosis. Can't remember the guys name on it but he is social compliance theory expert. And he hypnotised someone then asked them if they had been hypnotised. Of course they said no because they knew what this guys beliefs were and had been told about his theories ( they had been educated). Not only that he couldn't remember much. His explanation was that he had seen Paul Mckenna and knew what was expected so forgot everything because he was told.

Yes its an "explanation" but I couldn't believe he was serious.


Reg says >>>As MP says "The real truth is nobody knows for sure how hypnosis works. NOBODY"
So everybody is wrong and at the same time everybody is right.<<<

that's my whole point Reg talks about "educating" and "manipulating" people's models. For me that's what hypnosis IS really about that is hypnosis.

A model is nothing but a trance and we are all in our own trances our own models of our worlds.

I just don't see how doing basic phenomena using suggestion all of a sudden negates trance. I really don't see it. But then Im probably hypnotised..
Anthony Jacquin
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Quote:
On 2011-04-28 07:53, mindpunisher wrote:
I guess Ant we just don't agree on this point. I don't think it does.

I just don't see how doing basic phenomena using suggestion all of a sudden negates trance. I really don't see it. But then Im probably hypnotised..


I guess we don't. But let's try and understand. What hypnotic phenomena do you think the Social Compliance model cannot explain?

Anthony
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