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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
For those of the philosophical bent:
http://tomkow.typepad.com/tomkowcom/2011......ems.html It's an interesting blog on other related subjects as well.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Very interesting.
...my head hurts.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
D'oh!
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The answer, as always, is no.
Someone else might need organs, might be about to go to a terrorist cell meeting, or be about to go home and kill the wife and kids. It is simply not possible to know in advance what the "ultimate" outcomes of an action might be. The one person one might "choose to kill to save X others" might be about to offer a solution to world peace or a cure for cancer. Most simply, you can choose to give your own life as you see fit - and that's about where things end as far as your "free choice" goes. You'll notice that nobody suggests getting a car in the way, damaging the tracks, cutting the power to they system... Kindly give Archimedes notion about leverage a good review. Given a fulcrum, a fixed point of unmovable vanity about which a person will not compromise - what is needed to get them to perform an action which they might ordinarily claim is unthinkable. Now you have some context and a working discussion that illustrates some known answers. Yeah, I know growing up sucks. The good part about growing up (cognitively) is that you get lots of choices about how to deal with things even when most of the context and history is very sad and painful.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
What Jon said.
And BTW, that ain't really "philosophy", but some kind of sophistration regarding utilitarianism. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
So was the word "sophistration", but I left it for the cleverer among us.
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
WAIT! Now I repeated it.
I'm stupid. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
It is a nice word. How would you differentiate sophistration from sophistry?
I could find only one use of the word in a published book online, and that from 1884, but in a delightful context: Quote:
The Use of alcohol in its various forms is of such great importance in the treatment of disease that we would be most sorely puzzled to get along without it. As a drug, it is of the greatest value, no matter how much its use is to be deprecated as an article of diet. It is to be deplored that the great demand for it for the latter purpose has rendered it an object of much sophistration, and it is only with difficulty that the physician may pronounce in favor of an article of that kind, knowing that there is no longer any brandy distilled from grapes in France, or that the whiskeys of our market are rarely anything else than flavored and prepared highwines. It is gratifying to know that the Duffy Malt Whiskey Company has undertaken to furnish for medical uses a pure malt whiskey, which is reported to be all that is desired of alcoholic stimulant in treatment of disease. Free from that poisonous amylic alcohol called fusel oil, it is said to be readily borne by the most irritable stomach, without creating any disagreeable after-effect and gastric derangement. Woland |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Sophistry+obfuscation = sophistration?
By the way, sophistication is not the same is complex or baroque or involved. It (sophistry/sophistication) is not a nice thing in most contexts. The application of leverage to moral/sentimental issues may be somewhat new to our discussions. IMHO it's well worth exploring.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Woland, in all truth I thought I made the word up, and then you go and find it.
Jon, explore. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Stoneunhinged, folks
I don't know that the notion of leverage has been directly explored in moral decision making. Is there some discussion of "how many X is it okay to sacrifice to save Y" in studies and our literature? I'd like to start off by citing someone other than Archimedes and his "move the world" as that seems to cast him in an unusual role. The notion of a person having "i would rather die than reconsider this notion or belief" has some implicit presence in our literature though again not sure where it's addressed directly or if it has a name. This resembles the "immovable object" and "irresistible force" notions we sometimes hear about but in our discussion we are referring to beliefs and motivations. Help? Jon
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Jon, this is completely off topic, and will probably change in the next few moments, but right now you have...
EXACTLY! 21000 posts more than I do. Now...on to the scheduled programming. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
How about the material universe as the result of an irresistible force meeting an immovable object?
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-05-01 13:28, Woland wrote: I don't know what to make of "material universe", "irresistible force" or "immovable object" beyond their application as terms used to limit discussions - semiotic stop signs rather than tools applicable to construction.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
"The notion of a person having "i would rather die than reconsider this notion or belief" has some implicit presence in our literature though again not sure where it's addressed directly or if it has a name."
Martyrdom, fanaticism, patriotism . . . Now how about the notion of "I would rather you die than reconsider this notion or belief" . . . Quote: Not so simple as long as the love letter that never got sent and the medicine that was never administered have their effects in the real world as well.Most simply, you can choose to give your own life as you see fit - and that's about where things end as far as your "free choice" goes.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
Not so simple as long as the love letter that never got sent and the medicine that was never administered have their effects in the real world as well. Here's where I get motivated to explore: Let's presume the love letter is at the time sincere. Some time later the writers feelings may change. And there's no telling in advance how the letter would have been received. Let's presume the medication was properly manufactured etc. If administered it might behave as expected (efficacy) or have side effects. Again - no way to know in advance. I don't know how the medication example fits into this discussion of do/don't - as it appears to me that to administer (use) or not administer (leave sitting) is distinct from use on patient A or use on patient B given only one dose available. The latter appears to me a matter that can be addressed by consent or a coin flip.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Compare and contrast:
I sympathize with your suffering, and I will contribute from my own resources to alleviate your lack; vs. I sympathize with your suffering, and I will take from my neighbor's resources to alleviate your lack. I will give my own life to witness my belief; vs. I will take your life to witness my belief. Woland |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The sacred squid in my pool is exercising its divine right to elevate the mystic status of your dog by way of direct contact in primal incorporation. How could you possibly have a problem with that. If your household offering of a minor entity is adjudged suitable your children will be similarly blessed.
Love an tentacles, -C
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
My dog is grateful, if it is indeed to my dog that such an elevation is addressed. Just don't thrown me to the murenes . . .
Woland |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Usually kept a 'secret' they are part of the process by which lower order octopi and squid population are kept to manageable numbers. Remember they are to be treated with respect when served as sushi.
For he gives us his ink that we might spread his word and enhance our pasta.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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