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landmark
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First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.
Donovan said so, and I believe him.
Woland
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Whether we believe Donovan or not, the song describes a process many of us have experienced. Important to note that it ends with "then there is" however.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-05-02 07:59, Woland wrote:
Actualy, gdw, I was responding to this comment at the end of your post:

Quote:
It would not be "right" to kill Hitler (preemptively) but it would be worth the price, IMHO.


I apologize for forgetting that. I'm pleased that you agree that sometimes a bad choice is the best choice, and not making a choice is a choice, of course.

Woland


Yes, I just wasn't saying one HAS to do the "bad" thing. It may be what one subjectively sees as the "best" action, but they are not wrong if they don't take it.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
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This is a very serious development and illustrates the potential for a disaster in the Mississippi basin:


Quote:
SIKESTON, Mo. (AP) — The Army Corps of Engineers plans to go ahead with plans to blast open an earthen levee in Missouri in a desperate bid to protect the Illinois town of Cairo (KAY-row) from the raging Mississippi River.

The demolition could reduce water levels surrounding Cairo but will completely flood a prime patch of Missouri farmland.

The agency confirmed its plans Monday afternoon, but it was not immediately clear when the blast would take place.

Five more inches of rain fell over the weekend, putting new strains on the flood wall protecting the town, which sits precariously at the confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers.


The Corps was faced with the kind of decision we have been discussing here. People's homes and livelihoods will be destroyed by this decision, although others will be saved.

The implications farther downriver are even worse.

Those who believe in the efficacy of prayer should take heed.

Woland
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2011-05-02 10:06, Woland wrote:
Everything is an illusion.


Except perhaps the sense that one is thinking... ? Smile

It's when what we grant as common perceptual reality cusps into divergent realms where right here is not right now and right there is cannot be right here somehow that we might do well to walk together around the perimeters of what we have as illusion and perhaps by talking gain some perspective on the matters.

One step/word/notion at a time if you please. I'm a slow walker today.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
landmark
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On 2011-05-02 13:14, Woland wrote:
Whether we believe Donovan or not, the song describes a process many of us have experienced. Important to note that it ends with "then there is" however.

We are in agreement here.
Jonathan Townsend
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*that's somewhere between Rene Thom and an application of the Cauchy Residue theorem to our complex matters - not just a walk down the garden path.
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My mathematics is not good enough to follow you there, although Augustin-Louis is a sympathetic man of conscience and principle.

I was very struck by the predicament in which the Corps of Engineers finds itself. This is very much the kind of clash of utilities proposed by the the sophistrations with which we began this conversation.

What do you think about the Corps' dilemma?

At the moment, it appears that if they do nothing, Cairo will be lost. To save Cairo, they must destroy 130,000 acres of Missouri farmland. Either way is a bad situation.

Woland
Jonathan Townsend
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IMHO it's the dialog between the concerned parties that's of interest. What are they saying? What do they want? What have they said they would settle for?
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Jonathan Townsend
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*Woland, it's a surprising place to find the notion that if you walk around a place and yet don't seem wind up as you started, there's something in that place affecting you. Like Gauss's Water bucket or Divergence Theorem - it's a way to figure out if there's something "in" the place you are inspecting by walking around it's perimeter. What I'm walking around is a way to start knowing the elephants in the room without having to go bumping into them directly. Once one can start identifying the "what must be there" one can then decide on how to deal with it - constructively I hope.

Feeding the "invisible fauna" in our universe of discourse,

jon
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gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-05-02 18:46, Woland wrote:
This is a very serious development and illustrates the potential for a disaster in the Mississippi basin:


Quote:
SIKESTON, Mo. (AP) — The Army Corps of Engineers plans to go ahead with plans to blast open an earthen levee in Missouri in a desperate bid to protect the Illinois town of Cairo (KAY-row) from the raging Mississippi River.

The demolition could reduce water levels surrounding Cairo but will completely flood a prime patch of Missouri farmland.

The agency confirmed its plans Monday afternoon, but it was not immediately clear when the blast would take place.

Five more inches of rain fell over the weekend, putting new strains on the flood wall protecting the town, which sits precariously at the confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers.


The Corps was faced with the kind of decision we have been discussing here. People's homes and livelihoods will be destroyed by this decision, although others will be saved.

The implications farther downriver are even worse.

Those who believe in the efficacy of prayer should take heed.

Woland


If they do this, they should be accountable for all the damage and loss they cause. Those who suffer losses should be free to forgive/sacrifice willingly, or be compensated for what is forcibly taken from them.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Also, those who stand to have their land "saved" could band together to pay for the damage that it will cost to save them, so could other not directly affected.

The cost of such an action should not just be the mental burden of knowing one made the choice.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Woland
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Well, gdw, I'm not sure what the compensation arrangements will be in this case. It will be interesting to see, and something that folks downriver will be watching carefully.

The levee has been breached, with some effect on the river noted already.

Jon, I think I am beginning to follow you, but I am not sure what I can say to respond at this moment, if anything.

Woland
landmark
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What question would you like to begin with Jon?
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2011-05-02 22:32, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
IMHO it's the dialog between the concerned parties that's of interest. What are they saying? What do they want? What have they said they would settle for?


Woland described an issue that affects two parties and is being acted upon by a third. Hows' the dialog?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
landmark
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Such a dialog would require a level of democracy that most Americans are almost totally unfamiliar with, and indeed, given little chance to practice.
We will of course come round to the same place it always does: the dilemma of govt power vs. corporate power in the vacuum.
Direct action by people, as we have learned from Cairo (!) is one important way to fill the vacuum.
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Yes, direct action by the people in Cairo accomplished a lot . . . let's see . . . back in 1952 a committee of officers of the Egyptian army overthrew King Farouk and the army then ruled the country through a succession of generals . . . Naguib . . . Nasser . . . . Sadat . . . Mubarak . . . and now the people's heroic direct action has resulted in the country being run . . . by a committee of officers of the Egyptian army . . . . plus ca change, hein?

But back to the Cairo that is actually located in an actual democratically governed country . . . Cairo, Illinois . . . a 2-mile wide breach in the levee has now been established, and 200 square miles of rich, productive farmland are now out of service for at least a year . . . the farmers are starting a class-action lawsuit alleging illegal taking of their land by the Corps of Engineers . . . the Mississippi is still rising . . . and now environmental scientists are worried that a larger-than-usual fertilizer run-off into the Gulf of Mexico will lead to oxygen depletion . . . looks like the dialogue will involve more than just two parties now . . . .

Woland
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Yes you're right direct action is useless and should never be tried. US allies are simply too powerful, and the entrenched powers will never be overthrown.

Why are you so scared of democracy?
Woland
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Why do you think the continuation of a military dictatorship is democracy?
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