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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
I would have told her. "I don't believe you exist. Prove to me that you're not a figment of my imagination." I would have then said. My claiming that makes as much sense as her her claim.
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2011-05-08 22:14, RS1963 wrote: Matbe not. She was quite nice. |
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kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts |
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On 2011-05-08 21:55, Woland wrote: What makes him an idiot? So what if he died in 89'? Did Japan rejoice when Truman died?
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
I'm not sure but I think that Woland was trying to say why would have public rejoicing be done in Times Square for the Japanese Emp? Sure at Pearl Harbor there could have been or maybe was I don't remember.
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Had Hirohito been killed in 1943 there would have been plenty of rejoicing. The comparison made by Mr. Ellis is ridiculous.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2011-05-08 22:12, S2000magician wrote: Betcha a dollar if they showed a picture, she still wouldn't believe it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2011-05-07 01:37, Payne wrote: I have to ask again. Where in the heck info like this that is sipposedly reliable? Here let me reiteriate what you wrote: quote "Where in fact they will say anything to get the pain to stop. This is why torture doesn't work and Intelligence professionals refrain from using it. The information gathered through th practice historically is unreliable." end quote. What intelligence professionals would share this information with anyone? Also the info gathered "historically" is unreliable. Yea like all of the prople who do the tortuing are going to tell you that after they tortured someone and the person gave them information it turned out to be false. Lets look at this...isn't torture illegal? If you obtain the info through torture and it is incorrect do you really tell everyone that you toruted someone and they gave you the false info? Do you keep this info in a special book to compare with other people who torture and compare notes? My point being is that there is no basis for a statement of this nature about torture not working because of this or that simply because I do not feel there is any sort of database that contains the results of torture. Who the heck would keep this database and share it with anyone? I just don't see people admitting to commiting a criminal act and admitting whether it was suscessful or not and keeping a recored of it so one would have a "historical information base" that they could pass along to Payne. Also lets be realistic here. Doesn't it beat the alternative of asking the individual that you are positive has the information you need and they refuse to give it to you and you saying, "OK thanks anyway maybe next time"? In your example above you state that the informant gave false information...but neglect to state that what if they gave corredt information. That is exactly why the ticking bomb senario is the perfect example for using torture. Suppose it works and you save an innocent or thousands of innocents and inflict torture on someone who you know is a "bad guy" to start. Is it pretty? Of course not. Do you have to like it? OF course not. There are some things that are necessary that are not pretty. Take war to name one and the list goes on and on. It is far from a perfect world. I have seen people shot and blown apart and it was not pretty. We as a country have gone through several wars including a civil war and none of it was pretty. But were they necessary. I will let you answer that in your own thoughts and ini no way want to get into tht discussion. In my find mind torture is a necessary evil, which will be used by all when advantageous for the greater good. I know what you are thinking, the I was ordered to do it defense. Not everyone can do what needs to be done. But someone has to and someone will.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On 2011-05-08 23:31, acesover wrote:...a necessary evil. Glad to read you've accepted the necessity of evil in the world and a willingness to condone if not actually perform such acts. So what are you willing to do for a Klondike bar? -D
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2011-05-08 23:37, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Can't say about the Klondike bar as I don't like them. However if you are asking about the lives of my loved ones I can give you and answer. Whatever it takes. Your milage may differ as does your need to protect the ones you love.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On 2011-05-08 21:29, gdw wrote:... And what, specifically, do you believe to be the issue? If you recall the Millgram type obedience studies, there's nothing special about folks doing exceptionally unpleasant things in the name of "authority" or as "agency". Do you understand what got people upset about those studies? Really? Kindly take at least a moment before typing something like "they could not believe they did that" - which shows zero understanding/empathy/sympathy as regards those involved. Fun for the advanced student: change some nouns (names too) in the news story and see how you feel about the resultant story. Any change in emotional response there for you?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Jon, don't be so formalistic. Of course if you change things, things change. Sometimes the guys in the tanks getting Molotov's cocktails thrown at them are the bad guys . . . and sometimes they are the good guys.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Acesover, "loved ones" is the anchor you are using to spin in that circle. That's why I put "klondike bar" in there - you can put in that place anything/one else you want to explore your value-leverage on the issue. As that's what this is about - values clarification. Two puppies yes, one kitten no ... or such.
Woland, it's precisely that shift in nouns/context which permits us to explore our sensibilities on these matters. One adult perspective on such matters is to look at "would it get you want you want" and "would you face the consequences for those actions" as test questions. My preferred approach is to ask "and then what would you have (or have to do) to get what you want" until there's something closer to a plan or strategy to discuss.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Jon, your thought experiments assume that "Do unto others" is a universal imperative.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On 2011-05-09 00:18, landmark wrote: How so?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Well it seems to me that any 6'4" man in the bedroom of Osama Bin Laden with the wife of Osama Bin Laden is either Osama Bin Laden or the brassiest man in the whole darn world.
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
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On 2011-05-09 04:24, Whit Haydn wrote: LOL! "Cuckolded Terrorists" sounds like a good name for a punk band. |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2011-05-09 00:13, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Please don't back paddle by saying loved ones is the anchor. I am not spinninig anything. By your statement it seems that in cases where "you" feel it is affecting you personally it might be OK but not in general. Different people have different perpsectives on these matters and draw the line at different points. Save one life, save thousands or save a loved one, you pick, where do you draw that line? In your case I guess it means only if you are personally and emotionally involved. Kind of selfish. Don't you think? Remember there could be one or hundereds or even thousands of lives involved and all of those people have people who care about them. In many cases I feel the end justify the means. But that is just me.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
First you make a baseless hysterical assertion what the end is and then claim that end justifies the means.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2011-05-09 09:50, tommy wrote: Another meaningless post by Tommy...and so it goes.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Another baseless hysterical assertion by acesover.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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