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Dannydoyle
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I don't believe I talked of ego did I?

I just want to know why this always degrades into a stupid measuring contest. The (to avoid the "ambush term) "impromptu" guys, (is that better? seriously I ask) want or even DEMAND respect. But to be serious what has been done to earn it? I mean to be fair respect is something you earn, and it is something you must give to get. The whole attitude of the "impromptu" guys (I use quotes because I am not certain if that is the term you prefer.) make claims about us not understanding, scared to do it, old fashioned and all this. The premise is one of new age better than everyone and you better respect us because it is the new wave. THEN you are shocked that your ideas are not met with a warm reception. Is it any wonder?

Then when you are told you are wrong, or need to do a bit more research, or whatever you blow up and the name calling begins. Notice how this whole post I am intentionally going out of my way to avoid that? But in general the youth get pretty wound up with wanting respect. In the end I think that you need to do something that shows you deserve to be respected is all. This may never change.

Look back over the years of threads of kids who came in and were going to change the face of hypnosis in this forum alone. Most now gone from the hypnosis scene and onto the next fad they find. So maybe try to understand that this is not a new phenemenon. Maybe it is nothing new and all the chin wagging and swagger from the youth gets a bit tiresome. It seems new to you, but in reality it is not. So perhaps if you try a bit of respect, you might just get some back. I have tried in this very post to be respectful. I wonder if it will work?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Owen Mc Ginty
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Quote:
On 2011-05-04 23:21, rpierce wrote:
If you're in the Boston area and you read this, please PM me and tell me why you would or would not like to participate in this?


I´m just wondering if Mr. Pierce got an answer, even if it was via PM?
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
hypnokid
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The stupid measuring contest (of late at least) starts with MP inserting nonsense slurs in every post he makes within a short space of time (usually following a period of silence). People react, pointing out that his publicly observable record is not as amazing as he claims. Sometimes, they even point out that he's making a claim that can be refuted with his own words from only a couple of months before. Others join in and the insults appear in every post.

I would like to thank you for taking the time to write your post. I haven't witnessed the previous years of posts so am unaware that people may have written stupid things in the past. All I see is that I (and possibly others) are being treated as if we are those people, which I am not.

The attitude of the stage hypnotists in this forum has come across as blindly prejudiced against the impromptu hypnotists. Now, I appreciate that the past brings a lot to bear, but maybe you'd like to ask yourselves if blind prejudice is the kind of characteristic you would like people to think you have. I'm sure we are all smarter than this.

And on the topic of ambush, if I show someone a card trick (as I did on Saturday), then am I an ambush magician? Smile

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
mindpunisher
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I think we need a forum for cuecumbers. No one seems to care about what they think. They seem to suffer a lot of prejudice just because they are green.

I think they deserve more respect.
Anthony Jacquin
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No doubt your vegetable friends are grateful to know they too can be liberated using hypnosis.

I needed to know that they could, now I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNTIc9ytaaM

Wow how time has flown.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2011-05-16 05:25, hypnokid wrote:
The stupid measuring contest (of late at least) starts with MP inserting nonsense slurs in every post he makes within a short space of time (usually following a period of silence). People react, pointing out that his publicly observable record is not as amazing as he claims. Sometimes, they even point out that he's making a claim that can be refuted with his own words from only a couple of months before. Others join in and the insults appear in every post.

I would like to thank you for taking the time to write your post. I haven't witnessed the previous years of posts so am unaware that people may have written stupid things in the past. All I see is that I (and possibly others) are being treated as if we are those people, which I am not.

The attitude of the stage hypnotists in this forum has come across as blindly prejudiced against the impromptu hypnotists. Now, I appreciate that the past brings a lot to bear, but maybe you'd like to ask yourselves if blind prejudice is the kind of characteristic you would like people to think you have. I'm sure we are all smarter than this.

And on the topic of ambush, if I show someone a card trick (as I did on Saturday), then am I an ambush magician? Smile

HK


In truth I started using the phrase "ambush magicians" when the whole "street magic" phenemenon came to light after David Blaine.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
suspectacts
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My suggestion to R.P. (sorry to bring things BACK to the original topic):

Forget trying to find a 'crew' of hypnotists. Instead get a friend or hire a guy with with a video camera (the bigger the better) and some lights. Then approach people like you're making a show.

What most people forget about David Blaine style performances is that they are FOR THE CAMERA, not for the volunteer or for the crowd that forms. Give the volunteer a reason to succeed, making THEM comfortable, is much more important then making yourself feel comfortable (surrounding yourself with a posse).

Best of luck

peter
Dannydoyle
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The best trick David ever did was the "appearing second unit". It was cool!
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2011-05-16 05:25, hypnokid wrote:

The attitude of the stage hypnotists in this forum has come across as blindly prejudiced against the impromptu hypnotists. Now, I appreciate that the past brings a lot to bear, but maybe you'd like to ask yourselves if blind prejudice is the kind of characteristic you would like people to think you have. I'm sure we are all smarter than this.

HK


Actually, it's not. It begins by suggesting possibilities to help make street hypnotists better hypnotists--not necessarily turn them into stage hypnotists, but better hypnotists. Period (or for UK readers, Full Stop). This advice has been immediately rejected by several of the frequently posting street hypnotists.

HK, it's a matter of ego. Street hypnotists ask what others think, and if others don't bow down in obeisance to the beliefs of the street hypnotist, the street hypnotist immediately begins to whine about prejudice.

I can't speak for other, only myself. But some of the street hypnotists have come off as know-it-all 3rd grade students who have just learned long division and think anything else, like calculus or geometry, is a waste of time. They want to learn more but only under their terms.

I'm not against street hypnosis at all. I AM opposed to weak or bad entertainment in any venue. It makes all entertainers in that field look bad. Mentalists today are often compared to Brown; Illusionists to Copperfield, street magicians to Blaine, etc. When it comes to street hypnosis, there are a few good performers. Anthony, for one, is very good. As he has posted in these forums, he's never stuck someone's hand to a pole.

But most--not all--street hypnotists seems to have been trained by watching videos on YouTube. They do things that are extremely dangerous (such as seen in the advertising for Zap!), or just boring, such as living mannequins with pole sticks. Even if you're not a bizarrist, as Eugene Burger points out, if you make the spirit bell ring once, you've produced an awe-inspiring miracle. Do it 20 times and it's a boring effect. Where's the originality, the stage presence, the monetization?

I've written to Shrubsole the following three times. Here's the fourth:


"... help us poor people who don't have knowledge. Give us some SPECIFIC examples of stunts you're doing as part of your street hypnosis. Not magic. Not mentalism. Something other than having someone stick their hand to a pole or their forehead or stand in an uncomfortable position. Share how you're making a living doing just street hypnosis. Share how taking advantage of others for your own enjoyment is a good thing. Share exactly how you're getting a booker to come out from behind his/her desk, ignore your publicity and reel, and suddenly book you because they see you hypnotizing someone in the street. We poor people would like to know this!"

He still has not responded to this.

But even more interesting, perhaps, is the question of what is the ego involvement that makes some street hypnotists defend what they're doing so strongly? Interestingly, it would seem that the less a street hypnotist is trained, the more he defends what he is doing. Obviously there is a strong ego attachment to this.

From what I've seen, I would contend that it has to do with personal issues of the street hypnotist. He feels insecure and powerless. By "bending someone to his will" he gains power and self-perceived stature. Making street hypnosis changes from entertainment to therapy. They don't need to improve their skills. They don't need to be entertaining. They just need to show power over others to build up self-esteem. Bend more people to his will and he has higher self-esteem and more self-perceived power. There's no need to do anything more than making a mannequin or a hand stick.

If someone wants to work out their feelings of inferiority in public, that's up to them. People with inferiority feelings will often blast those who dare question their position (it's called a Napoleonic Complex). AFAIC, I just want to see better hypnotists. That means training, study, and practice. It means developing stage presence and working on perfecting one's skills. I have been absolutely consistent in saying this, advising both street hypnotists and stage hypnotists to do this. Quite frankly, some people who want to learn stage hypnosis end up doing the same thing. They read one book or saw one video and now want to learn everything their way, and if you dare to suggest anything that would make it easier and faster to become an effective hypnotist, they denounce you. It has nothing to do with hypnosis, it's ego. With their minimal studying they know better than anyone else.

Are there people who become great hypnotists using means other than training, study and practice? Absolutely! But for every person who becomes a good hypnotist without training, study and practice, I would guess there are dozens, if not hundreds, who try and give up. How do I come up with that number? Because I've seen people who get the training and still couldn't hypnotize someone. For every student who gets training or mentoring and fails to learn, I believe there will be many more who don't get training or mentoring and just give up. Look at the numbers of books on how to be a hypnotist that sell and how few performers there are.

HK, I'm not saying you "have to" do things my way or anyone else's way. In fact, I would hope that you come up with great performance techniques and concepts. What I am saying is that street hypnotists shouldn't blow off people with experience and knowledge. Listen--and remember that they can be wrong, too. Often, some speak as if their way is the only way simply because it worked for them. Give what those who have experience and share ideas and information with you a chance. Try it out. If it works, use it. If is sort of works, modify it so it will work for you. If it doesn't work, discard it. Originality often involves learning something inside and out, and then coming up with a new approach. It doesn't mean starting out with a new approach from the beginning.
mindpunisher
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What happened to the Monty Python clip? It made the most sense on the forum.
Mindpro
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Very well said and explained dmkraig!

I might add that I also think part of the problem here is the magic connection. Having attended over 15 live trainings and certification events, as well as hosting my own hypnosis consulting/mentoring noticed there is a huge difference in the way magicians approach their interest and desire to learn hypnosis (of any style) vs. regular students with no magic interest or background. I'm not sure if it's two different agendas (one with pure interest only in hypnosis, and the other with interest in hypnosis as it will pertain to their magic or performing careers, interests or endeavors) or two different mentalities, mindsets and approaches to learning a new skill, craft or profession.

Most non-magic students have a single sole vision in mind - to better understand, learn, practice and apply hypnosis. The student with magic-based interests seem to come from a perspective where they have learned many different elements or tools from their magic - i.e. slights, misdirection, cards, coins, ropes, silks, and other individual skills that together add to their overall craft. These people seem to approach learning hypnosis as they would one of these skills or effects. From these two different mindsets comes two entirely different perceptions, applications, and expectations. The ego seems to be the most significant of these differences. For some reason those with magic backgrounds or interests seem to have the ego mindset that you pointed out in your post of wanting or needing acceptance, approval and empowerment. In the opposite, those approaching hypnosis for their pure interest in hypnosis itself, literally seem to have none of this - no ego, no need for acceptance or approval, no need to impress, or for empowerment.

This has long been an interesting observation of mine that when I discuss it with other trainers or educators seem to also agree 100%. Not good or bad, right or wrong, just simply an documented observation. I think this is at the root of the street hypnosis situation and approach as you have pointed out. These needs and ego or status driven elements are what I think leads to the loud uproars, unwillingness to listen to others with more experience that offer great info and advice, and the so-called measuring contest that seems to have come up here.

Now I understand this is a magic-based forum so we have to understand this when trying to have serious discussions about hypnosis here on this forum. Again, I'm not knocking this or these people as I know there are plenty here, just simply pointing out an observation. I also believe that is why Anthony and several others that have recognized, identified and have created products and resources to this niche market (magicians with an interest in hypnosis) are doing so well, have positioned themselves as the authority to these people, and are most highly regarded. I respect Anthony and others that have done this, as it is very smart business. But while I do think Anthony (just using him as an example, do not mean to pick on him or single him out) and some others do have respect for the art and science of hypnosis and those who are skilled in all professional facets of the industry, this doesn't seem to be shared by their followers or as part of their education as far as I can see.

dmkraig has offered some great perspectives that I hope will be understood an considered by those learning.
dmkraig
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MindPro, although I've not seen any sociological evidence to support this, I think your analysis of the approach of the magician to hypnosis has merit. I would take it a bit deeper.

According to the psychologist Jung, the instinctual but difficult goal for each of us is to become unique individuals, what he called the process of individuation. He gives the journey of the hero, as presented in so many myths, as metaphoric examples of this personal journey.

In Western society, this journey of individuation is different for men and women. For men, part of this journey is finding personal power. When boys—who live in a world of being half the height of adults, being told always to say "yes" to their "elders," and never acting out their personal issues—try to become independent individuals, the immediate technique is often power. Beating up younger and weaker siblings is not uncommon, sometimes leading to extra-familial bullying behavior. But how can you get a "one-up" on people who have more training, more knowledge, more height, and more strength? For some boys (and it's usually males), the answer is magic. They know something the elders don't know! That gives them a self-perceived advantage. The Greek gods can overtake the Titans!

Eventually, however, the younger gods become adults. They have the knowledge and training, height and strength to get personal power and become an individual. As a result, they no longer need magic. Indeed, in my observations, lots of boys start with magic, but as they become adults, they abandon it. The one-upsmanship magic gives them isn't needed, so it's left with Scylla and Charybdis.

Some of the young men, however, continue with magic. It's not longer a means of gaining personal power and control. Now it becomes a means of entertainment of others in order to achieve other benefits, ranging from adulation to extra money. Magic is no longer seen as a source of power over others.

For some, looking for a system to once again get that power over others becomes a necessary tool for self-empowerment and individuation. Upon seeing the apparent ability of using hypnosis to do this, some of the (now) young men want to use it for that purpose. Used to reading an instruction sheet on how to work with gaffed cards and boxes, and then using prepared patter with their magic, they look for the SAME THING with hypnosis. The patter becomes a "hypnosis script" and the gaffed box becomes an instant induction.

Thus, in many cases--especially for younger performers--the purpose of street hypnosis is to exhibit power over others and further feelings of security and personal power. That is why they focus on sticking hands to poles and making living statues: it shows their power over others. It is an attempt to find personal power externally rather than internally.

That is why I strongly encourage people who are interested in hypnosis of any kind to get training. Training is generally not in the form of scripts only, but rather gives insight into the nature of mind, how people function, and gives an added knowledge to the student. This helps them achieve personal power along with added skills. It also helps them become better hypnotists, and I would like to see more of them as it will raise the level of professionalism for all of us.

To sum, by observation I see that younger men who get into hypnosis by way of magic tend to do so (albeit not always) as a way of compensating for personal insecurities and dealing with person issues of feelings of powerlessness and inferiority. Just as most boys who get into magic eventually abandon it as the external need for self-empowerment fades, most of those younger men who get into hypnosis as a way of continuing individuation eventually leave hypnosis when it's no longer necessary to support their feelings of equality and self-independence.

Most of these young men don't want training (and come up with innumerable excuses/reasons for not obtaining it) because it would take them off their journey. Odysseus had to visit Circe and stay with her to personally evolve. Leaving early by understanding the purpose of being with her would not allow him to fully internalize the lesson.

On the other hand, there are some young men who think that hypnosis is just amazing and want to learn everything about it. My encouraging them to get training will only help. There are also men who are slightly (and not slightly) older who are looking to expand their performing skills. Some have posted on these forums. They usually performed magic (as a pro or amateur) for some time and are looking for other things. My guess is that Anthony is a member of this group. He wrote that he never stuck a person's hand to a pole and I believe him. He is an adult (i.e., has reached a certain level of individuation) and doesn't need to have power over others.

I would contend it's important to differentiate between the needs of these two different groups, those who want to extend their entertaining abilities and those who want to do this in order to walk further down the path of the Hero and deal with their personal growth issues. One is neither better or worse than the other, just different. As I wrote, I'd like to see better hypnotists all around, and by encouraging study, practice, and training, I hope it does so. And of course, there are probably people who come to hypnosis by way of magic who fit into neither group.

So how does standing up to those on the Hero's journey help them? The same way Circe and Polyphemus helped in the Tales of Brave Ulysses. To develop personal power you need someone to stand up to as you exert external power and become the Cream of the crop (with apologies for the ancient music references). Or put another way, for Superman to become Superman he needed Lex Luthor. For Batman to become Batman he needed the Joker.
quicknotist
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The debate about Street Hypnosis - We've been here before, in 1922
http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/breakin......d=932255
Mindpro
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Very interesting dmkraig, I hadn't probed into it to that extent but it seems to be consistent with my findings and with the other's I've discussed this with. This would seem to be consistent with some of the attitudes here too and more than likely the basis for much of the difference in approach and understanding of advice and information being presented.

I've also noticed that I rarely find women seeking information, advice or training to ever have the ego, attitudes and need for acceptance, peer support and the bonding over their attitudes and "being right" in their opinions and assessments. I'm certain that this as you pointed out is due to their lack of insecurities and lack of a need to feed their ego, confidence or non-existence "macho".

I have spent much time studying attitudes and behaviors and find this very interesting as it better allows one to understand the reasons and "why's" that some of the things and perceptions exist. I also feel as a hypnotist these are prime tools that can only help and enhance your performance and abilities. Although rarely discussed here in this forum, audience reading and people skills are essential to any stage hypnosis performance.
Damon Reinbold
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In fact, audience reading and people skills are MOST importnat to any hypnosis, stage or otherwise. Rapport is the first thing needed and people reading is a major step in that direction.
Hypnosis is NOT getting people to do what you want (a gun to the head will do that). It is more a two way street between the hypnotist and the subject (what a bad word for the participant). These street hypnotists need to study some Erickson, don't you think?

Damon
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dmkraig
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Mindpro, I don't think it's a question of women have a lack of insecurities. Rather, girls and young women generally (and every person is different) have different insecurities than do boys and young men.

Damon, you don't even need a gun to get people to do what you want. You can just use a powerful magic word: "Please..." I agree that developing rapport quickly (see the book "Instant Rapport" by Brooks) is valuable, as is reading people, so you know which people are more likely to be open to you and follow your suggestions. However, street hypnosis is based on direct suggestion, not Ericksonian permissive styles of induction with metaphor.

I would also agree that hypnosis is cooperative. The thing is, most people spend so much time doing what advertisements say, what their parents say, what their teachers say, what their employers say, what government officials say, what religious authorities say (well, in the U.S.), what doctors say, etc., that they're used to obeying direct commands and suggestions. I can walk into any crowd and within three minutes have someone just give me their wallet. It's easy to do. However, you have to have rapport.

So while I would encourage any hypnotist to study the three Es: Elman and Erickson, and Estabrooks, I'd also encourage the study of Ronning, Hunter, Bandler, Andreas, Zeig, Lankton, Stockwell, Rossi, Mottin, Hilgard, Caprio, Boyne, Kein, Hull, Bramwell, Arons, James, Furst, Wolberg, Nongard, Jacquin and so many others. However for someone looking to learn street hypnosis, I wouldn't focus on Erickson.
Mindpro
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Very true. It is this kind of stuff that leads to success and both a hypnotist and performer, not necessarily the things you have subjects do once suggestible. Erickson should be a part of all beginning hypnosis training and education. It's not about the "power" the hypnotist has over the subject as many would like to think, but as you pointed out a two way relationship built on this and several key factors.
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2011-05-17 17:25, quicknotist wrote:
The debate about Street Hypnosis - We've been here before, in 1922
http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/breakin......d=932255


That fascinates me thanks for posting it. Nothing is new!
quicknotist
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Quote:
On 2011-05-18 18:39, mindpunisher wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-17 17:25, quicknotist wrote:
The debate about Street Hypnosis - We've been here before, in 1922
http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/breakin......d=932255


That fascinates me thanks for posting it. Nothing is new!


You're welcome. Personally, I've always preferred the classic image of a "travelling medicine show" type of hypnotist over one who works around outdoor pub tables.
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