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Shrubsole
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Quote:
On 2011-05-10 16:12, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-08 20:41, Shrubsole wrote:
But that is only stagecraft or staging and can be an almost inborn thing picked up from watching all sorts of stage acts or can be learnt at a theatrical class.

After learning the hypnosis and personal interaction with the subjects, a stage act can be put together and tested before it goes on the road and staging changed until works. And works for you (we don't all want to be clones of the mentor do we?)


I don't think you know the first thing about putting together a stage presentation. Now if this is not your goal, no problem.


And on what do you base that opinion? It's all fine and well coming on the Internet and just disagreeing or posting just a soundbite, but why do you think that? What do you feel I have left out? Helping others is the general idea on here (or should be)

In my example 'Stagecraft' means anything that isn't the hypnosis, so I think I've covered it all.
Also this is a great example of why I actively chose to remain anonymous on here as lines like "I don't think you know the first thing about putting together a stage presentation." are very far from reality as I have done many a successful stage show in Magic, Mentalism and Hypnosis. (Some combining all 3)

So whilst you have every right to just pluck an opinion out of thin air, it would be interesting and no doubt helpful to all here if you stated why you think that and what it is that you think has been omitted.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
Dannydoyle
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The idea that many of the things done in stage craft are "inborn" and can be gleaned from simply watching others does not hold much water sorry.

You have left out ANYTHING that refers to relating to an AUDIENCE! Everyone worries about the trance, and about the subjects yet the show is being done for an AUDIENCE. They MUST be part of the equasion. For someone to leave that extreamly important part of it out speaks to me at least, of someone with very little experience in on or arround the stage. Then to challenge me to tell you what you left out with this HUGE hole is strange.

See the fact is that a good hypnosis show is talking to the audience and saying one thing, and talking to your subjects and saying another, while using THE SAME WORDS! Like I said I think many of these nuances escape you. If I am wrong then please accept an apology. It is just based on what you have written. Also the simple fact that you refuse to use your name, does not help with me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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On 2011-05-08 15:42, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
Your own thumper product is chock full of presentations where you claim to read body language. How is this any different?

Anthony


I said I don't like NLP used in pseudo prsentations. My own manual was written quite a few years ago now but I don't ever recall ever using the term NLP. If I did then ( but I don't think I ever did) my views have changed since then. I remember when Derren Brown first came out the fact he did elude to using NLP I thought was really clever. As the years went on and the clones mushroomed I learned to hate the idea. Especially when it does have some real useful applications.

Although if you want use body language fine. I personally really don't like long winded explanations trying to "prove" something is real they seem so laboured to me. The best presentations Ive seen in my view involve a lot of humour and drama without the need to over explain or justify. I find that so boring. And I am not claiming to be a great performer in that style but thatis the style that appeals to me.

Nothing more dull than a person walking up and down a line of people asking them all to say the word no when asked if its their drawing. Then repeat it another four times with no humour no reading of each drawing just the same thing.

Derren gets away with explanations but he has the charisma to do so. Very few others do that Ive seen.

NLP isn't really about reading body language although most magicians seem to think it is. Most magicians/mentalists don't have a clue as to what it actually is. Apart from reading a few chapters of popular books on eye accessing cues.

Just my view.
dmkraig
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MP, saying you're using NLP when you're not is just verbal misdirection, like reaching for some invisible "woofle dust" in your pocket to cover some action. I agree it's becoming more and more overused and it leads to people with little training in either NLP or magic coming up with amazing explanations for tricks along the lines of "it's all done with mirrors." What I find especially amusing is that these know-nothings tend to get upset when I tell them it's not NLP. Of course some people still think that Houdini was able to dislocate all of his joints or that Geller used a "dry acid" to melt spoons so they'd bend.
mindpunisher
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I agree with you totally Dm. Apart from the "woofle dust". NLP as you know is very real and has some real benefits for those that take the time to learn it and for their clients.

I don't like "NLP woofle dust" used this way since I think it misinforms the public. And apart from that I don't really think its necessary and like you say its a lazy way to create a presentation since its over used. It makes me cringe when I hear it. Mind you if I hear any of the overused terms like "woofle dust" "Abracadabra" etc it would equally make me cringe.
Shrubsole
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On 2011-05-10 18:01, Dannydoyle wrote:
The idea that many of the things done in stage craft are "inborn" and can be gleaned from simply watching others does not hold much water sorry.

You have left out ANYTHING that refers to relating to an AUDIENCE! Everyone worries about the trance, and about the subjects yet the show is being done for an AUDIENCE. They MUST be part of the equation. For someone to leave that extremely important part of it out speaks to me at least, of someone with very little experience in on or around the stage. Then to challenge me to tell you what you left out with this HUGE hole is strange.

See the fact is that a good hypnosis show is talking to the audience and saying one thing, and talking to your subjects and saying another, while using THE SAME WORDS! Like I said I think many of these nuances escape you. If I am wrong then please accept an apology. It is just based on what you have written. Also the simple fact that you refuse to use your name, does not help with me.


Audience management whilst under hypnosis and talking to the audience about hypnosis (whether true or hogwash) comes under the hypnosis part which I covered, with stagecraft added in. Setting the general mood or atmosphere can arguably come under both hypnosis procedure and/or stagecraft as it's a bit of both.

In a similar way, safety also comes both stagecraft (anything conducted on a stage or anywhere should be safe no matter what, for performers and audience) and hypnosis. (Obviously any part of the safety that is specific to hypnotism. Including but not only: Safety whilst in hypnosis and a full wake up procedure.)

Inborn was maybe taken the wrong way, but I think that as with most things, some people have an eye/brain for such things and others don't and never will have. Many items of stagecraft can be instilled in certain individuals who are receptive to that. It can be gotten from any performance onstage or off by having a lifetime of watching all sorts of things, not just hypnosis but plays, musicals, comedy, speeches, and anything else. 'How was the lighting use?' 'How was the sound use' 'Backdrops?' 'Presentation style?' 'Overall mood set?' 'Pacing?' etc., etc., etc., can all be seen and absorbed from seeing many theatrical and non-theatrical things over many years. But some people are oblivious to the whole thing and don't get it and never will, so whilst the actual stagecraft may not be inborn, the ability to absorb and understand it is with some people. (Hopefully everyone here, but as said, we have both seen some acts where the performer doesn't understand it and never will)

As a really crap example we can have a quick over-view of Copperfields flying: The whole piece starts with a video, setting up the whole premise of what is about to come. (The video is designed for two purposes; 1 to set the scene and the premise and 2 to give Mr Copperfield the time required to get ready) - Now of course the getting ready bit is not registered by the audience as they are engrossed in the video and that is how it should be, but there is often more going on that the audience perceive.

The video of course sets the scene and premise that Mr. Copperfield has had a dream to fly and has been trying and failing for years but that if he never gives up then he hasn't really failed. (Sickly sweet metaphor for everyone should follow their dreams and never give up) - Then follows the technical bit of stagecraft as the video ends and lighting changes/video fades/music starts/video screen flown off/etc.

And then of course Mr. Copperfield then fulfils the premise set (all requiring bits of stagecraft) and executes one of the best stage exits possible. (Flying off into the wings with a bird of pray on his arm)

Now some people see all that stagecraft and some don't - Now that doesn't matter if you are just an audience member, just sit back and enjoy, but it's the type of things anyone should know and understand if they are thinking of putting on any show.

The rest of course is the technical workings of the trick, and that is akin to the hypnosis part of a hypnosis show - That is for the performer to know about and do, not for the audience. They don't need to know what type of induction you are using tonight or it's history. Most Pre-hypnosis talks are a mixture of reality and hogwash to set the scene, allay fears and make the audience receptive to what happens next. (Better cover that included in the reality parts is the screening for safety and/or any other safety that needs to be address. (Or that will get jumped on))

So I still contend that there are only two parts: Hypnosis (Which is what the hypnotist must learn anyway they can or want to as long as it's safe) and everything else comes under stagecraft as stagecraft does include everything else. Obviously there is some crossover as to which bit is hypnosis and which bit is stagecraft, but that is just semantics. The only things needed therefore for a good hypnosis act is hypnosis and stagecraft as that does cover everything. Again it's only semantics if something else is required as whatever it is can and should come under Hypnosis and/or Stagecraft.

For work not on a stage the word performancecraft can be interchanged with stagecraft and in many cases is a more suitable word.

As agreed, some people understand what stagecraft is and absorb it whilst watching many things whilst others don't and never will and therefore shouldn't really be performing anywhere. But they do!
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Dannydoyle
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If you are talking about an "aptitude" for it then we can agree. I find it odd how many times hypnotists on this forum have so much trouble with simple language!
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Shrubsole
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Yes 'aptitude' is fine if you want to put it that way, but I would say aptitude is something that isn't learnt, more the way you are born. Some are born with it some are not and will never get what people are talking about.

Most skills can be taught, but having a inborn aptitude for something really helps.
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dmkraig
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When I was a kid, I remember drawing in kindergarten. I could barely make a house with a stick figure outside while the girl next to me drew a horse with every individual hair being windblown! I always thought I was a terrible artists until I took a class with someone teaching using the book, Drawing From the Right Side of the Brain. I was actually shocked at how good I could draw.

The girl had an inborn aptitude. Left undeveloped, it withered and died. I didn't have an inborn aptitude, but with training I was able to far exceed what a person with inborn aptitude could do. Later, I learned that through modeling, it was possible for a person without inborn aptitude to develop superior talents in any field.

Perhaps this means we all have inborn aptitude for everything, but we only bring it out when we focus upon it.

But the bottom line is that inborn aptitude will only get you so far. Training, practice and experience will supersede any other person's inborn aptitude if left undeveloped. It's like little kids can get by on cute for just so long. Sooner or later they grow up and aren't cute any more. Natural aptitude will only get you so far. Training, practice, and experience will inevitably win out.
Dannydoyle
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On 2011-05-11 13:39, dmkraig wrote:
Perhaps this means we all have inborn aptitude for everything, but we only bring it out when we focus upon it.

But the bottom line is that inborn aptitude will only get you so far. Training, practice and experience will supersede any other person's inborn aptitude if left undeveloped. It's like little kids can get by on cute for just so long. Sooner or later they grow up and aren't cute any more. Natural aptitude will only get you so far. Training, practice, and experience will inevitably win out.


Exactly.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Shrubsole
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There is nothing wrong with training in anything at all and in moving into a new area, someone may surprise themselves and find they already have a natural aptitude for whatever it is.

However, training someone in something without a natural aptitude or unable to develop one for it, just produces a robot clone of the teaching material.

How many magicians do exactly that? No creative thinking, no stage presence and no idea that they are doing anything wrong. They just buy the DVD and do it like the man on the video says to do it, complete with the jokes that just don't work in all situations.

For decades here in England, magic was held back years by the old fuddy duddies who instructed anyone who would listen that to be a magician you needed a top hat and tails! I clearly recall back in the 70s seeing on TV a Canadian magician who looked like a hippie. Dressed in jeans and a T-shirt, with long hippie hair. (Doug Henning) but oh no! The old fuddy duddies here didn't like that and that was not the way to go at all. They were wrong and had no aptitude for seeing anything outside of what they had been taught.

It's funny that decades later, I'm seeing the same thing and attitude with 'Street' (whatever that means) Hypnosis.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
mindpunisher
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I mean Restaurant...I should've just said Café.. Spellings getting worse with using word checkers all the time..
dmkraig
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OOOHhh! Nice switch, Shrubsole. Instead of just saying, "Only old fogies stuck in the past who can't accept change are against street hypnosis," you share a long story about magicians in top hats. Of course, this really only reveals your own predilection and approach and could just a well be written, "Help me! I'm terrified of learning anything from experts so I'll ignore them, repeat all of their mistakes and errors, and appear to be a self-centered, egotistical, know-it-all."

In reality, neither is the case. Experts are saying there's more to entertainment hypnosis than sticking a hand to a trash can and you're saying that new approaches should be embraced. Personally, I agree with both points of view. I agree with you that new approaches should be embraced--when it's logical to do so. Change, IMO, is good. But change for change's sake is meaningless.

You've claimed you've gotten lots of shows as a result of doing Street Hypnosis before a booker instead of sending them typical brochures and a video. Mmmm, maybe. But you've made no indication that you've made a series of tests comparing the two approaches. Plus, it could also be that when it comes to traditional promotion to bookers you just suck and if you were good at it you would have achieved far more success that way.

Even so, you are making the logical error of moving from the specific to the general with no reason to do so. That is, you're assuming that because something works for you it must work for everyone. It doesn't. In fact, when I look at the majority of people doing street hypnosis I see younger men (under 25 and often under 20) showing off, making fools of others, and trying to get over their own insecurities and feelings of inferiority by doing so. I don't see street hypnotists working queues and getting tips or handing out adverts for their shows later that evening. I don't see them contacting newspapers and radio/tv stations saying, "Send a reporter! I'm going to hypnotize unsuspecting people right on the street."

Even assuming you're accurate and that you're best able to get bookings through a few minutes of street hypnosis in front of bookers, that's NOT what the majority of street hypnotists are doing. If you're able to rationalize your actions by saying you can best get bookings this way, more power to you! But that's like saying every mentalist should claim to be using NLP because Brown gets away with it.

What works for one does not necessarily work for another.
Mindpro
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On 2011-05-12 12:12, dmkraig wrote:
In fact, when I look at the majority of people doing street hypnosis I see younger men (under 25 and often under 20) showing off, making fools of others, and trying to get over their own insecurities and feelings of inferiority by doing so.


Very well said. I also agree with you about who is being attracted to street/impromptu hypnosis, their demographics and reasons. This is why so many of their posts here begin with or include such phrasing or references as "I was trying to hypnotize someone at my school..." or "here at my University..."

The fact is true professionals in any field perform a skill for profit, period. Anyone who is just doing this for fun or self-fulfillment is an hobbiest or amateur. No real agent likely could or would book anyone from just a street performance anyhow as they would still need the proper materials to present the act/person to potential clients. So often here the basis of the disagreement or difference in perspective is because the conversations are between professionals and amateurs/hobbiests. This is the root of so much of the conflict here. It used to be if you were new or just starting out you would look up to and respect those with more experience than yourself, you would learn from them, rather than make a fool of yourself by trying to challenge them. The only thing this has ever seemed to achieve is a bonding of those with little skill, knowledge or experience, leading to the blind leading the blind and a false sense of knowledge.

Many seem to talk about things they've never done personally themselves, others from literal personal experience. There is a big difference.

I'm personally so grateful for those pro's that offered me, advice, knowledge and wisdom as it all contributed to making me a better performer overall.
Shrubsole
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In responce to dmkraig's post:

All I am stating is what I have tried and works for me. If you find something that works better for you then great, stick with it.

I'm here giving my view like others so that people can read it and make their own chose as to what to try and what has worked for me. I not here to waste my time on semantics, 'what it seems like' or intellectual nit picking of a couple of words or a sentence.

Also, it's not just Hypnosis I do, I have a mentalism act and a straight magic act as well. Sometimes I have been known to do all three! (Do I have to add a line here explaining that just because I do that others may do it differently? Or can we take it that people of at least average intelligence are reading this and can work that out for themselves?)

But if we are nit-picking semantics, it seems that you are trying to say that all street hypnotists ever do is stick people's hand to tables, and rest your view of them on that. Whilst I'm sure 1000s of them how do just that, others don't! Some do it merely for the enjoyment of it, some combine it with mentalism, some do it as a foot in the door, some do lots more than sticking people's hands to things...

Why is your world so black and white? It would appear that in your world there are 'the experts' (meaning anyone who is not a street hypnotist) and street hypnotists who only stick people's hands to things. That is a very narrow view of things and why embracing new things and approaches is a good idea even for someone as old as I as I'm no teenager. I think 'old fogies' isn't an age, it's a state of mind.

Also as you may know, here in England we don't elect ourselves experts and use it to look down on people and attack anyone who doesn't give us the respect that we demand they do. If I'm an expert in anything (see, I don't elect myself as one) then any knowledge I have I try to help people with and demand nothing in return. That does seem to be a major difference between people who are experts and those out for an ego trip demanding this, that and the other.

It's bad new I'm afraid: Stage Hypnotists are not the only experts in the world! (Self elected or otherwise) There are just as many bad ones of those as there are bad Street Hypnotists. Only seeing the good in one and the bad in the other is the major problem in your intellectual essay.
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dmkraig
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On 2011-05-12 13:01, Shrubsole wrote:
In responce to dmkraig's post:

All I am stating is what I have tried and works for me. If you find something that works better for you then great, stick with it.


If that were the way you were presenting your position, I'd agree with you 100%. But respectfully, that's not what you're doing. You've been presenting yourself as THE way to achieve success for all because it worked for you and if any dare challenge you they're nothing but archaic luddites lost in their dotage.

Quote:
I'm here giving my view like others so that people can read it and make their own chose as to what to try and what has worked for me. I not here to waste my time on semantics, 'what it seems like' or intellectual nit picking of a couple of words or a sentence.


Well, I'm "anti-semantic," too. ;-)
However, I would suggest that the very basis of hypnosis is understanding and using language (both verbal and non-verbal), so it's important to choose words wisely, especially for a hypnotist.

Quote:
Also, it's not just Hypnosis I do, I have a mentalism act and a straight magic act as well. Sometimes I have been known to do all three! (Do I have to add a line here explaining that just because I do that others may do it differently? Or can we take it that people of at least average intelligence are reading this and can work that out for themselves?)


You see, this is what I mean. You're coming off as a snarky know-it-all who thinks that nobody in the history of entertainment has never done magic/mentalism/hypnosis and that you're The Great Originator. I'm sure that's not what you want to do, but it's the way you're presenting yourself.

Quote:
But if we are nit-picking semantics, it seems that you are trying to say that all street hypnotists ever do is stick people's hand to tables, and rest your view of them on that. Whilst I'm sure 1000s of them how do just that, others don't! Some do it merely for the enjoyment of it, some combine it with mentalism, some do it as a foot in the door, some do lots more than sticking people's hands to things...


First, my post had nothing to do with semantics. I was being straight forward. Second, I sincerely doubt that there are "1000s" of people doing street hypnosis. I'd love to see any source you have that shows there are thousands of people doing this. Third, I never claimed that there aren't some people who do more than stick people's hands to trash cans when doing street hypnosis. However that (and similar stunts) is certainly what the majority are doing. Fourth, you write "Some do it merely for the enjoyment of it" but don't share what that "enjoyment" is. I contend it's working out their own psychological issues and feelings of inferiority. But prove me wrong. What type of enjoyment is it to come up to people, hypnotize them, and stick their hands to a pole? Fifth, I'd love to hear what type of stunts you're doing with street hypnosis other than putting people in uncomfortable positions. Please share. I'm sure others here would like to have you educate us.

Quote:
Why is your world so black and white? It would appear that in your world there are 'the experts' (meaning anyone who is not a street hypnotist) and street hypnotists who only stick people's hands to things. That is a very narrow view of things and why embracing new things and approaches is a good idea even for someone as old as I as I'm no teenager. I think 'old fogies' isn't an age, it's a state of mind.


Now you ARE playing semantics. Interesting that you said you didn't want to do it but that's exactly what you end up doing. I wonder why that is? So lets go down your claims:
1) I don't see things as black and white. I'm open to all styles of hypnosis including street hypnosis. On the other hand, you have denounced anyone who dares disagree with your closed-minded attitudes. You're the one seeing things in black and white.
2) I use the term "the experts" to mean "people with experience and advanced knowledge of a subject." Therefore, there could be street hypnotists who are also experts. My point was that you are totally ignoring people with more experience and knowledge than you have. That, again, is you dividing of people into black and white.
3) I agree that "old fogies" is a state of mind, not an age. But it's also the way you're treating people you disagree with.

BTW, in my opinion, when experts say something is possible, it probably is. But when people are considered experts merely because of their age, and they say something is impossible, they're probably wrong.

I'm STILL waiting to hear your SPECIFIC examples of street hypnosis other than what I've described. So far, you've just made broad generalizations about things you supposedly do.

Quote:
Also as you may know, here in England we don't elect ourselves experts and use it to look down on people and attack anyone who doesn't give us the respect that we demand they do. If I'm an expert in anything (see, I don't elect myself as one) then any knowledge I have I try to help people with and demand nothing in return. That does seem to be a major difference between people who are experts and those out for an ego trip demanding this, that and the other.


And I think that's what any expert should do. However, it's a total waste of time when you try to share and someone tells you they know better. This is especially difficult on a forum. Were it in person, a reasonable person with experience, when confronted with someone who tells him or her, "you're wrong," would just say, "Whatever" and walk away. But on a forum, where hundreds or thousands of people might read the posts, if trained and experienced people don't respond then neophytes are likely to think the person without expertise knows what he or she is talking about and be horribly misled. Therefore, on forums, when people care about others, it's important to stand up to those who don't know what they're talking about.

Quote:
It's bad new I'm afraid: Stage Hypnotists are not the only experts in the world! (Self elected or otherwise) There are just as many bad ones of those as there are bad Street Hypnotists. Only seeing the good in one and the bad in the other is the major problem in your intellectual essay.


So if you're presenting yourself as an expert, then help us poor people who don't have knowledge. Give us some SPECIFIC examples of stunts you're doing as part of your street hypnosis. Not magic. Not mentalism. Something other than having someone stick their hand to a pole or their forehead or stand in an uncomfortable position. Share how you're making a living doing just street hypnosis. Share how taking advantage of others for your own enjoyment is a good thing. Share exactly how you're getting a booker to come out from behind his/her desk, ignore your publicity and reel, and suddenly book you because they see you hypnotizing someone in the street. We poor people would like to know this!
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I had a serious meeting with a major TV company yesterday about street hypnosis. The stunt that got them interested. Catalepsy with a cash challenge.

For the record I have never stuck someone to a bin Smile

Anthony
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hypnokid
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@dmkraig, whatever.

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
Shrubsole
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"So if you're presenting yourself as an expert..."

And that's it in a nutshell! I'm not presenting myself as anything. I don't need to. I Don't seem to have that trait shown by some on here where they arrogantly have to be the top dog and demand that everyone needs to listen to then or they are wrong. I have no ego that requires constant stroking and reinforcement.

It is that very arrogance on here that is ruining this place. Self-elected experts telling you that they are experts and that everyone else should shut up and listen to them whilst they prattle on on their ego-trip.

It so bad that they can't even see they are doing it.

Read my posts or don't read my posts. Find them of interest or discard them. I have no ego that requires constant attention and no need to qualify my posts as something you need to listen to by telling everyone how wonderful I think I am.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
Shrubsole
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"Share how taking advantage of others for your own enjoyment is a good thing."

Oh how I LOLed. Talk about biased shoving of your own words onto others mouths with loaded demands.

Seriously: Can you not see how you are coming across by posting arrogant demands and telling people what they need to do?

Answer: Exactly as I have stated above and it went straight over your head. Oh well, I tried.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
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