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Dreadnought
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Racism is racism, it doesn't matter who is dealing it or on the receiving end of it.

These laws, requiring people to produce papers, are desgined specifically for the undocumented Hispanic population, it's just glossed so that it appears to be directed to everyone. I'm sure, during the course of a traffic stop, a white guy or black guy will not have to produce papers showing their citizenship. That's just designed for our Hispanic brethern. To think otherwise is extremely naive. I work closely with the Catholic Church and the Hispanic community in Georgia. Those that are undocumented, documented and some who are citizens, live in a constant state of fear. When one sees police cars setting up insurance and seat belt check points at both ends of the street just in time for the end of a Hispanic Mass then it is a racist and ethnic issue. You as an attorney and me as a former police officer and every other attorney and police officer here knows that the way a law is written and the way it is enforced are, at times, two vastly different things. And I believe those that write the laws know that as well.

There are always those that don't agree with the President no matter who sits in the oval office. But I have heard more hate and vile garbage coming out of the mouths of people directed to President Obama than I ever heard directed to President Bush, and it is racially motivated. These "Birthers" who demand that the President of the United States show his birth certificate - which is stupid as no state will surrender a birth certificate, just a certificate of live birth - are doing so because there is a black man holding that office. And just so you don't flail the skin off this horse, there is no way you or anyone can convince me otherwise.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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LobowolfXXX
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And yet you've argued very persuasively in the past for the reasonableness of potentially racist enforcement of just about any other law on the books. There's a fine line between racist pretext and reasonable articulable suspicion. Certainly, the same argument can be (and is) made for Terry stops, investigation of drug trafficking particularly in minority neighborhoods, and all sorts of other things. So is the distinction really the potential for racist enforcement (a potential that is a necessary part of just about any permissible 4th Amendment inquiry), or is the distinction that you just don't want immigration laws enforced, unlike drug trafficking or other laws?

I'm not defending the Birthers (other than to point out that there are reasons other than race that Obama might have fallen under more scrutiny than his predecessors), but people who break federal laws on a daily basis (by their continued presence) probably OUGHT to live with some measure of fear, just like people who break other laws do.

I respect (though I disagree with) the open borders group, but people who want successful illegal immigration rewarded, and who want to prevent law enforcement officials from trying to prevent illegal immigration through the enforcement of existing law, should just admit that they're pro-illegal immigration (and by this, I don't mean you necessarily; I haven't heard enough of your comments on the issue).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dreadnought
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In the past I have said that police officers bend the rules, the laws, if any police officer has never done that then he or she is either:
a. lying
b. has never been a police officer.

That's why I said what is written and how it is enforced are two different things. I've participated in it and I'm not proud of it; it is why I am no longer a police officer. I just know what is in the mind of a police officer. My point about the immigration laws being presented at state levels is that they are racist in nature, one can enforce the law all they want it doesn't make it any less racist. Likewise, just because a law is passed does not make it just.

I not advocating, as most people always accuse me of, a person breaking the law. I am just asking justice for all those involved, justice meaning the common good and not just the common good of the United States.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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Dreadnought
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Also I never aruged for, just stating what the police have the right to do. I only said it was legal, not necessarily just.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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critter
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Who can come out ahead in:
Image

?
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-05-09 13:28, Dreadnought wrote:
In the past I have said that police officers bend the rules, the laws, if any police officer has never done that then he or she is either:
a. lying
b. has never been a police officer.

That's why I said what is written and how it is enforced are two different things. I've participated in it and I'm not proud of it; it is why I am no longer a police officer. I just know what is in the mind of a police officer. My point about the immigration laws being presented at state levels is that they are racist in nature, one can enforce the law all they want it doesn't make it any less racist. Likewise, just because a law is passed does not make it just.

I not advocating, as most people always accuse me of, a person breaking the law. I am just asking justice for all those involved, justice meaning the common good and not just the common good of the United States.


I don't see a distinction between presenting immigration laws at the state level vs. the federal level, with respect to racism. That is, I don't see it being any MORE racist because it's state police or county sheriffs and not ICE officers doing the enforcement.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "justice for the common good" or "justice for those involved." It does sound like perhaps you mean open borders; that there not be restrictions placed on those who would prefer to live in the United States.

Then the question is what "should" be the case with respect to those who are breaking what you may perceive as an unjust law. At least one of our forefathers argued that there is a moral obligation to break unjust laws.

I do think that people who want successful illegal immigration rewarded, and don't want illegal immigration punished, but who claim to be against illegal immigration, are making a distinction without a difference.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dreadnought
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The federal laws are just as bad, however; I have never seen ICE and/or other federal officers do set up road blocks, i.e. insurance and seat belt compliance check points, in heavily Hispanic sections of a city, targeting just that population and use that a ruse to check for immigration status.

I am not saying that successful illegal immigration be rewarded. I am saying that an equitable compromise be reached so that all parties involved can have justice.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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LobowolfXXX
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That question can't really be explored all that much without a more fully developed notion of what constitutes "justice."

You and I haven't addressed the question of rewarding illegal immigration, but most people intend that at least some the benefits conferred on residents not be restricted to those here legally, e.g. emergency health care, public education (in some places, at in-state tuition rates; e.g. my cousin, a legal resident of Arizona, would have to pay more to attend Berkeley than an illegal immigrant residing in California, if an in-the-works bill passes the state legislature here). That's along the lines of what I mean by "rewarding" successful illegal immigration.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dreadnought
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That is not rewarding successful illegal immigration, that is a basic right due to the human being, it is part of basic human dignity. Justice is what is fair to everyone, the borders are protected and secured and those here illegally have the right to pursue citizenship.

A just immigration reform is one that will allow:

a. legislation that will ensure the dignity of the family and keep the immigrant families intact.
b. a legislation that will adopt enforcement policies that are smart and humane and are equitably enforced.
c. one that ensures immigrants without legal status register with the government or face the just consequences of their inaction to do so and those that do are allowed to begin a path toward citizenship that is not fraught with overly burdensome red tape.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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LobowolfXXX
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With respect to (C), what do you consider the "just consequences of their inaction" with respect to registration?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dreadnought
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It depends on the situation. The family structure is first and primary. Deportation could be used, but not if a child was born in the United States during their time here, if the parents get deported then the child(ren) must go as well, regardless of their citizenship status. Again, this has to be handled justly. Deporting a child only a few months old with their parents is one thing, deporting a 15 year old who has only known this country, with their parents is something completely different and brings in the just issue.

The breakup of the family unity through incarceration is completely different from deportation.

Fines and probation are another means of imposing a just sentence.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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Dreadnought
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Of course one can always claim Sanctuary which saw a resurgence in the United States in the late 80's and early to mid 90's. Some churches, especially along the border, have had people claim Sanctuary. I imagine that over time the Catholic Church and the United States will come to blows over this.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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LobowolfXXX
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I think that your position is fairly construed as rewarding illegal immigration. The illegal immigrant in your scheme benefits greatly from jumping the line, as opposed to the prospective immigrant who goes through the legal process, filling out the paperwork and waiting in his home country. It is largely the purpose of rehabilitation that people can have an opportunity for their futures not to be damaged (or at least damaged too much) by their past actions, but in my opinion, people shouldn't be BETTER off on a go-forward basis as a result of having broken the law (and I'm hard-pressed to think of another situation in which someone would be).

If deportation is a "just consequence" of failure to register, then it seems that it could be considered (in those cases) as a "just consequence" of having entered and remained illegally in the first place. I appreciate your elaborating on your position(s); it's an interesting topic. While I do disagree with you fairly strongly for the most part, I respect your position and your support of it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dreadnought
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It all comes down to depending on the situation. The dignity of the human being and family integrity is paramount. Given the horror stories and the first hand account of things I have personally witnessed here and in Mexico, Colombia, El Salvador and Peru. In many cases the people have no other choice but to flee to the United States. Waiting years for paperwork usually means a majority of people will die horribly before getting a chance to immigrate. The only choice is to reform our policies.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2011-05-09 13:28, Dreadnought wrote:
In the past I have said that police officers bend the rules, the laws, if any police officer has never done that then he or she is either:
a. lying
b. has never been a police officer.

That's why I said what is written and


Just so I have some context here, have you ever been a cop?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dreadnought
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Yes
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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Tom Bartlett
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I hope Herman Cain is the next Republican candidate for President of the United States. If he does run and win the presidency, you can bet that the "LEFT" will do to him what they did to Clarence Thomas and what the "LEFT" did in his case was raciest.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
critter
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Quote:
On 2011-05-09 15:42, Dreadnought wrote:
It all comes down to depending on the situation. The dignity of the human being and family integrity is paramount. Given the horror stories and the first hand account of things I have personally witnessed here and in Mexico, Colombia, El Salvador and Peru. In many cases the people have no other choice but to flee to the United States. Waiting years for paperwork usually means a majority of people will die horribly before getting a chance to immigrate. The only choice is to reform our policies.


I agree with much of this. I would also add Southeast Asia to the list of places it's imperative for some to get the heck out of.
It's also important to note that many who are being oppressed in their home countries are the poorest of the poor, and legal immigration takes money that they just don't have.
Unless we make it easier for the people who need to escape to do so then I can't blame them for risking their lives to get here any way they can.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2011-05-10 23:56, Dreadnought wrote:
Yes


Great now define for me "bend the rules". Do you mean outright laws or do you mean departmental policy. Then tell us which you have "bent" and describe for me the difference in a "bent" rule and a "broken" rule/law. I just want to make certain we are all using the same terms here if we want to have a discussion. It only makes sense.

You use terms like that and make sweeping generalizations about how cops who havn't done such a thing are all liars. I am trying to clarify how much you mean and to what extent.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
HerbLarry
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Quote:
On 2011-05-11 12:42, Tom Bartlett wrote:
I hope Herman Cain is the next Republican candidate for President of the United States. If he does run and win the presidency, you can bet that the "LEFT" will do to him what they did to Clarence Thomas and what the "LEFT" did in his case was raciest.


:applause:
You know why don't act naive.
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