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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Wizard Product Review from World Magic Shop » » Wizard Product Review 50 - 4-5-2011: (Concept 7, Sugar High, Flipper Card, Double Back) (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Martino
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Whilst I normally thoroughly enjoy the WPR I feel that Jon is spot on in his comments a couple of posts above. Despite the positive comments by both Dave and Craig regarding the Double Back trick (which is excellent btw) and the spot-on negative comment I felt that Dave was having a sly dig at Jon with his comments about Jon's Key bending effect Flexion (which is also excellent) before the main review started.

Jon's comments seem to confirm that Dave obviously has some problem with either Jon or his Flexion effect which should have been sorted out long before now (like when Flexion was initially released)!

Get it sorted chaps!
"There's a difference between not knowing how something is done and knowing it can't be done!" - Simon Aronson
rnaviaux
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Quote:
In fact Craig’s comment about the gimmick eventually getting grubby is fair although it will take ages to get to that point.


Saying "ages" is a bit of a stretch. How long is an age? Is the gimmick in some way better than regular US playing cards?

This brings up the biggest issue I have with special gimmicks. They tend to not match the rest of the deck in appearance. Unless one is doing "packet ticks" where the cards in question are not pulled from a deck of cards then one needs to take into consideration that cards do age and quite rapidly depending upon several factors.

I think its a bit misleading to say that a gimmick will take ages to get grubby. I suppose it could take a while it you rarely perform the effect.


"Am I wrong?"
Jon Allen
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Hi rnaviaux,

No the gimmick is not better than regular US playing cards. However, the gimmick is made by them so it matches their regular cards perfectly. Hence, this is not a factor. If anyone does have one that is defective in the printing, I'll replace it free of charge.

Saying it takes 'ages' is not misleading. I could have said that if you look after it then it will last you a long time. If you don't wash your hands before you ever work; if you leave the gimmick out the deck or if you doon't look after it then yes, it will deteriorate quickly. If you look after it, like any magic prop, it will last you ages. I've performed with mine for hundreds and hundereds of performances. When it got a little dirty I was able to carefully wipe it clean, prolonging its shelf life. If it was one gimmick used in a regular deck, it would eventually stand out like a sore thumb. However, I perform with the cards in isolation so any slight discrepency is not noticed... or at least none of the tens of thousands of people who I have performed it for has ever commented on it!
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Andrew Zuber
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Rnaviaux - do you own Jon's effect? Or are you making assumptions? I'm guessing you don't own it since you don't seem to know that it's a packet trick - in fact Dean Dill calls it his favorite packet trick. It's printed right on the case. I wouldn't call any advertising or commentary on a trick misleading until you've actually used it.

This is a beauty and Jon has done a great job with it. I found myself annoyed by the interruptions during the performance, because one of the strongest things about this is the pacing and the moments that make it different from DDLT. While Craig and Dave loved it, I can see how others could have watched the performance and thought, "that's not that great, I don't see why they're giving it such high marks." I think it's important to have fun on the show, and that's one of the big reasons I watch it, but I also think it's important to remember that you're dealing with the livelihood of creators. Yes, it's YOUR show, but you're reviewing THEIR products. If it's trash, you should tell us because I appreciate your honesty and knowledgeable criticism. If it's a good product, it should be treated us such.

I don't think you would half-heartedly perform any of your own tricks, or anything by Wizard FX. Imagine if I bought Sleeve Star, had the coined signed, had a bunch of banter with someone behind the camera, vanished the coin, more banter, some laughter, and then showed the coin in the other hand. The moment would have been lost. The strength in that trick is that the coin is instantly in the other hand. Having seen Jon's trick performed with a good presentation, I know how strong it is. I felt that was lost on the show. Did the trick get a high percentage? Yes. Did it win Worker of the Week? Yes. Was it reviewed well? Not in my opinion.
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carlwag
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Jon is right it can last ages if looked after as can lots of packet tricks and its a great trick may I say jon, that's why it was wotw.
As I follow wpr now for my magic buys (this has saved me buying some right tosh)as do lots of magicians I'm sure this review did jon more good than bad.
but that's only my opinion.

carl.
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Like I previously mentioned, I had never heard of "Double Back" much less seeing it performed.
Craig reviewed it and then performed it. On that performance, and that performance only I purchased it the very same day. Obviously I could easily see and fully appreciate what the effect was even with the so called "disrespect", or whatever, and it bothered me not in the least. If it had lost any impact whatsoever in Craig's performance I seriously doubt I would have bother to spend the money on it! Then again, maybe I have a serious character fault called....a sense of humor, and so it would seem do some others.

Bottom line, Craig's performance of it sold me on it and I'm now a little happy camper.....silly me. Smile
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rnaviaux
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Well I don't perform packet effect per se. I like to take them out of a deck in use. Those are my guidelines currently for using gaffed cards/packet. Maybe later I will go back to doing packet effects.

In fact even brand new gaffed cards will stand out from a brand new deck. Takes a bit of work to match up a deck with gaffed cards/packet trick.

Certainly one can take advantage of keeping one's hands clean (lol!) and of course it helps if you perform in a dry, non-humid, climate. Utah is excellent for this. Florida and Costa Rica not so much.

But no playing cards last for ages. That's just hyperbole. But I could understand how they might last for a while. Considering the condition of some cards that I have seen magicians carrying around with them this would not surprise me in the least. Personally I want my cards to look like they come straight out of the box. If it wasn't for Costco I'm not sure how I would afford the 100 plus decks I go through each year.

Maybe its just me but I find a deck of cards to last about 6 hours at most in practice time. Yes I have kept track. Old decks that have sat around for a while when reopened look considerably different than when first opened. Maybe I'm too picky but I haven't had any cards last ages. How long is an age anyway? And how many are we talking about when we say "ages?" Maybe defining our terms will help here.

I don't think I've done a thousand performances with the same cards whether gaffed or not so I'll have to take your word for it. Tens of thousands of spectators? That's very impressive!

Andrew - Huh? What advertising did I say was misleading? I merely called Jon's statement that it will last ages into question. Of course it remains to be seen what is meant by "ages."

No I don't currently own it. And its been a while since I worked in a shop and had access to it to demo it. I think its a great effect! If I were to add it to one of my sets I'd take the cards from a deck in use and replace them there as that is the way I like to do things. Obviously if the cards are unique like Wild Card or Swain's Capitulating Cards then I can see taking them from a wallet.

If I were to recommend this effect to others in the future. I'm not currently in the selling magic tricks business but if I were, I would recommend the customer purchase three sets. The price is fairly inexpensive. That way he would have one to practice with, one to perform with and a backup in case something happened to his performing set.

In fact it would be a great deal to offer replacement cards. I don't know if Jon has a website but that's a way to make some extra cash.

I think I will reserve the right to call any advertising or commentary misleading or otherwise whether I have purchased said product or not.
rnaviaux
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I guess Steve Brooks agrees with me about one thing at least:

"Does the effect use gaffed cards? Yes it does, and thankfully Jon provides Bicycle's.

Can the cards be fully examined? Yes and no. If your audience management is good, a switch to ungaffed cards should be fairly easy. Further, removing the pair from a deck you have already been using should pretty much take the heat off the cards anyway. "

It also thinks removing the cards from a deck in play is a great way to introduce the cars.

That quote was taken from another thread on the Café in which Steve gives his take on this packet tick.
Jon Allen
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I don't consider Double Back a packet trick either in the true sense of the term. I also take the cards from the deck (they are set up on top) and go into the presentation. For me, a packet trick consists of cards you couldn't take from a deck e.g. 8 King of Spades or 4 jokers. If I do something that requires 4 cards found in the deck, why would I not take them from it? The presentation is also important as it is very interactive. I talk about people's assumptions that the hand is quicker than the eye and, more importantly, that magicians are accused of distracting their audience. It's a routine that flows. Hence the frustration at all the interruptions to Craig's performance!

How long a deck lasts is purely subjective. I don't do effects requiring faro shuffles or anything where the condition of the cards needs to be immaculate (although I appreciate that clients do not expect you to have grubby cards!) so they will last me longer than someone who does need them in perfect condition.

Oh, I would also recommend that people buy three sets! Smile

My comments about bias and insinuation, along with the realization my comments were not about the actual review (after being attacked for not liking it when I had said thanks for it) were met with an "I don't need to deal with this" dismissive attitude. It will be interesting to see if others who made similar observations are disregarded in the same flippant manner.
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Andrew Zuber
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Quote:
On 2011-05-12 23:45, rnaviaux wrote:
I think I will reserve the right to call any advertising or commentary misleading or otherwise whether I have purchased said product or not.

So you're reserving the right to make uninformed statements based entirely on assumptions? Good to know.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
rnaviaux
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Quote:
On 2011-05-13 12:06, Andrew Zuber wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-12 23:45, rnaviaux wrote:
I think I will reserve the right to call any advertising or commentary misleading or otherwise whether I have purchased said product or not.

So you're reserving the right to make uninformed statements based entirely on assumptions? Good to know.



lol @ this. Not entirely on assumptions. More like a lifetime of observing many, many advertisements and hearing lots of commentary and gradually gaining an ability to judge things for myself.

This started when I was just a teenager. Heard a lot of pro commentary and saw a lot of propaganda pushing the idea that drugs were 'cool'. So I made an 'uniformed' statement after watching some individuals take said drugs that maybe it wasn't the greatest thing to do in the world.

Many, many subjects and experiences later I have gained some (not perfect by a long shot) ability to make some assumptions and thereby come up with uniformed statements that sometimes work out for the best.

Of course, sometimes not. Its a constant learning experience. But rather necessary as I can't experiences everything due to time costraints. Not to mention the fact that some experiences could kill one. Also I don't have the funds to purchased every product out there to verify if my "uninformed assumptions" are true or not.

So until that day when I do have the time and money to verify with personal experience every advertisement, commentary and or opinion uttered here and everywhere else I will continue to rely upon my meager skills gained at sorting out the chaff from the wheat. No doubt I will be wrong at times and may never find out that I was wrong. But I will continue to the best of my ability to gauge things according to how I see them.

Reminds me of back in the day when all I had was my trusty Tannens and Abbots catalog. I didn't know any magicians. Heck I didn't even know there were clubs one could join. I had very little cash as times were very tight for my family back then. A dollar was pretty hard to come by.

Being able to spot that an advertisement was misleading was vital! Before purchasing the product as that was the point of no return. Sometimes I just had to guess that such and such wasn't all it was made out to be in those quick blurbs.

In fact I daresay being able to spot misleading advertising, information or commentary is a skill that is vital in just about any field of endeavor nowadays. Even more so with the net as there is such an abundance of these things we are being exposed to all the time.

So if you think this is somehow a character or behavior flaw because I am willing to state my viewpoint on something without buying the product first then I'm sorry to disappoint. Be rest assured that 90% of the time I simply don't know and state that. Really bugs my wife when I do that:)

But I think I'm good to go to disagree with someone saying this packet trick will last ages. But that's based on years of experience with playing cards, packet tricks or otherwise.

What I want to know, Andrew, is why you are making the assumption that I don't own it based on another assumption that I don't know it's a packet trick. What is your definition for "packet trick" anyway? A trick done with a few cards? How few cards do you need before its a "packet trick?" That's you take said cards out of a wallet instead of the deck? Do they have to be gaffed to qualify as a "packet trick?"

Are Twisting the Aces or Jumping Gemini packet effects? What about Monkey in the Middle?

Let me know your take on this.
Andrew Zuber
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Having first seen Dean Dill do this, and then seeing the packaging where his quote is printed on the front, referring to it as his favorite packet trick of all time, is what led me to refer to it as such. I think a lot of effects are marketed as packet tricks...you get the little card holder, a handful of cards, and you're good to go. I think very often, the cards are somehow gaffed, though that wouldn't be a requirement (at least in my mind) for it to be called a packet trick. Though it may be available, I've never seen Twisting the Aces sold on it's own, unless it's a gaffed version. I always just dive into the deck and pull the aces out.

It does seem that most marketed "packet" effects are somehow gaffed...otherwise why not just use a normal deck of cards, unless you're doing a version that uses only sleight of hand? My preference is to somehow bring the cards in when I need them, rather than pulling out the plastic wallet, which seems suspicious to me unless you're doing something like a Wild Card effect where you have several of the same card. Aside from that, regardless of how something is marketed, I certainly don't perform anything as a packet effect, but rather as a trick using just a few cards (all of which are obviously totally normal Smile )
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
Jon Allen
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Quote:
On 2011-05-14 02:44, rnaviaux wrote:
But I think I'm good to go to disagree with someone saying this packet trick will last ages. But that's based on years of experience with playing cards, packet tricks or otherwise.


If you wish to disagree then that's your decision. However, I have based it on having performed with the same gimmick over hundreds of performances. I also don't agree that it is misleading although 'ages' is not exactly a quantifiable length of time. I used it base don the amount of time and number of performances in which I have used mine. There are many misleading adverts and online demos. Saying something is a 'free choice' when it's 'free choice from a limited choice' is misleading. Many videos cut out 'the work' to make the effect seemingly easier than it otherwise is. How many times ahs the selection process been excluded form the video? You are right though. Magicians do need to learn to spot misleading advertising. For that, they need to have a broad knowledge base which you obviously have. I think this is why there is a call for online demos so that people can see the presentation for themselves. Unfortunately, many videos will then add to the confusion.

I don't mind people disgreeing with me if reasons are given for the alternative point of view. Saying something like, "X is no as good as Y" is pointless without reaosn. I'm more than happy to discuss things.

Unfortunately, David's arrogance and contempt for both me and others on this board is there for all to see.
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Craig Petty
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Jon I really don't see why you are bringing up Dave Penn again. We gave you worker of the week and performed your effect for everyone on the WPR. We were very complimentary about the effect and only mentioned one negative which was our opinion. Dave has only posted twice on this thread both times addressing your posts so I cannot see how he is showing contempt and arrogance. Seriously as far as I can see your upset that Dave interrupted me while I was performing and nothing else. So how does this make him arrogant? You asked for Dave's respect and he said you don't get it because of how you have reacted about a good review, again this is his opinion.

So Jon, is Dave arrogant because he refuses to give you respect and if so doesn't that make you arrogant?

Not trying to start an argument, just wondering why you are still going on about a good review.

Craig
Jon Allen
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Hi Craig,

Thanks for posting. If you read my post of May 12th, you'll see the issues. If you haven't read it, please do so. In a nutshell, it's got nothing to do with your opinion of the trick; the review itself or the WOTW. As I pointed out, I even thanked you for the review. So far everyone has jumped on the bandwagon of me not liking the review. That's wholly wrong as I have said.

As has been pointed out by me and others, David's manner, especially after his inital and blatant insinuation regarding Flexion tempered his involvement. It tainted his invovlement in the review as a whole and for me it was uncalled for and totally unjustified. I put my points across, and mentioned those from a few people on here who commented on him, ready to hear his side of things only to be met with 'LMAO'. To not just ignore these posts but to just laugh them off seems like arrogance and contempt. So, it's not totally about a refusal to give me respect. Don't I and others deserve some sort of reply other than "LMAO"? Actually, the right thing to do would have been to contact me and ask me about any issues he had so that we could discuss them. The wrong thing to do would be what he did do. I have seen you come on here in the past when people have said negative things about the show and the reviews and that's great. Even if the disagree with you, I am sure people respect you for it.

I've asked David if he has an issue (or issues) with Flexion and am still waiting for an answer. It is clear from the video that he does and I don't see why.

Craig, I hope you can see this is not about me receiving a good review. As a creator of effects and products yourself, I am sure you can appreciate that reputation and integrity is important and I am defending mine.

Regards,
Jon
Paragon 3D - the most incredible Card to Clear Box you will ever own. Be fooled here: http://youtu.be/GQxRZ1OGkUo
The Silent Treatment - Digital Edition: this iconic routine just got upgraded! Watch - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=phTDUhX0m9o
Watch the brilliant effect, Rule of Three: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CytuXsCbL0 and order it from www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
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Jaz2005
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Hi John

The right thing to do perhaps would have been for you to speak to David or myself at Wizard FX Productions before you launched Flexion. As the producer and designer of Coinvexed 2 I can say without doubt that the gimmicks is very similar. Further David has also lectured on Keybending with the Coinvexed 2 years before you launched Flexion

Your routine / structure for having the keys signed is also the same as the routine David pioneered for Coinvexed and as used in his keybending routine with Coinvexed 2.

David and I discussed your Flexion gimmick when you launched it and decided for good grace to raise no fuss about the issue, even though I blind man running for a bus would notice the similarities in both gimmick and routine. We were however surprised that you made no contact with us before you released Flexion. Was that that the right thing to do???

This speaks volumes for David's character but I feel that it leaves yours in doubt.
Whereas David was prepared to let it lie, other than the friendly dig he had on the Wizard Product Review, you seem want to take it further. Perhaps we should put both items side by side along with both routines on the Wizard Product Review and let the viewers decide. The problem that I have with this is that it would only give your Flexion gimmick more publicity than it deserves.

Quite frankly if you have Coinvexed 2 you do not need Flexion and you also have the option to bend coins which are far more natural than keys. For that reason David did not include the Keybending on the Coinvexed DVD rather he chose to lecture on this aspect as an addition.

By the way John you were the first poster with the LMAO so stop complaining about it

ROTFLMAO again

Jim
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(Sorry for the long post ahead. Lots to address and I’m going to be away all week.)

Hi Jim,

Thanks for posting. I should start by saying I have no wish to ‘take it further’. Unfortunately, I have allegations and insinuations to defend against. I doubt anyone impartial would think it was a ‘friendly dig’ or that the constant interruptions were appropriate to a performance of an item in review.

It would have been tough to contact you or David about Flexion due to the fact I did not know about your gimmick when I came up with it.

While you say he did key bending with the gimmick, typing ‘Keys Coinvexed’ into Google or here brings up no mention anywhere of using the gimmick to bend keys. I also have never seen David lecture.

I don’t believe having someone write on one object while you ‘do the move’ on another is something “pioneered” with the Coinvexed routine. Anyway, doesn’t every magician know that if you need to distract someone away from ‘the dirty work’, get them to do something else? When there’s a Sharpie in play it’s even more obvious what needs doing. What all the reviews of Flexion have said is that the routine is what makes it stand out. None of them comment on any similarity between mine and the Coinvexed one. Anyone can see the routines are totally different:

In the video, David asks for their name, a random number and a random picture to be drawn
I ask them to write the initials of someone they love and someone they hate.

David’s talks about energy from the magician and him ‘doing something’.
I ask them to think negative thoughts towards the person they hate.

David is somehow causing the bend.
The person holding the keys is somehow causing the key to bend.

From the video, there isn’t a reason given for the extra coin.
The second key is given a reason for being there.

David’s routine is about how he can bend coins. (Correct me if I’m wrong.)
My routine is about using keys as a metaphor for ‘unlocking’ inner emotions.

David uses a physical method to affect the apparent bending while in their hands.
I use psychology.

The way to achieve the bend is totally different.

You are right though that the gimmicks look similar (although they are not identical). However, while I do not know exactly how your gimmick is handled and affects the bend, I do know they operate totally differently. The Flexion gimmick is used in isolation but with yours, along with using a different aspect you need the original gimmick as well (I am being deliberately vague.). Your blind man would notice the similarities in the look but spend so long talking about the differences in the design, usage and especially the routine (and what’s offered on the DVD) he’d miss his bus.

I was chatting to Gregory Wilson and Danny Archer yesterday. I asked them whether, if they had known about your gimmick and came up with Flexion, they would they have contacted you. They both, without any hesitation, said, “No!” They said it is totally different; the actual gimmick is different; the object it bends is different and the way it is used to bend is different. Brad Henderson made a comparison in his MAGIC review with something… and it wasn’t Coinvexed! Marketplaceofthemind says of Flexion, “I will confirm that it is the same basic idea, but the design and the working of the gimmick are different.”

Even though it isn’t, let’s go with your ‘they are the same’ route. Some people don’t believe in ‘independent creation’ but I know without doubt that it does! Just ask Danny Archer. I called him with an effect many years ago. A friend of his, someone I had no idea existed and living in middle America, called him 45 minutes earlier with the same effect! We spoke and agreed to release our two items independently.

I inadvertently came up with the Intercessor (before it was known about) as a gimmick to make another trick and never realised it!

I came up with an effect that I learnt Meir Yedid had put into print and had released. We discussed it and I agreed not to release it through dealers or advertise it but that I could sell it in lectures.

Most recently, I also came up with a coin in bottle gimmick. Having ordered 2000, shot the video and spent a large sum of money and time developing it, I found out that Bob Swadling was about to release the identical gimmick just before I was! Too late for a collaboration, I told him and Mark Mason that I would not release mine to dealers. I’m currently still running at a loss.

That leaves my integrity and character in no doubt.

You mentioned similarity in routine. Three out of four of David’s releases are either identical or similar to an existing method, gimmick and/or effect. For David to make insinuations about Flexion is, without a shadow of doubt, hypocritical. I don’t expect you to agree but the case is there for all to see.

Not to include key bending because coins are ‘far more natural’ seems very strange indeed. It’s actually unnatural to bend *either* of them! What's natural about bending coins? That’s why it’s magical when it happens to either of them. It’s also an opinion with which I and many, many others disagree. There’s also is a great deal more to a routine than the gimmick. For example, David uses a gimmick to get people to feel the coin bending; I use psychology from Benjamin Earl’s ‘Skin’ (who I spoke to about it and credited him with on the DVD).

“By the way John you were the first poster with the LMAO so stop complaining about it”

(It’s Jon without an ‘h’. Thanks) Yes Jim, I did use LMAO. It was in response to someone asking what the ‘R’ stood in for in WPR when someone else mentioned it was more about entertainment than the reviews. It was not in response to any sort of allegations that should have been addressed. Nice try though.

So let's see….. you’re desperately trying to have a dig because you feel I should have got in contact with you about a similar looking gimmick that works in a totally different manner and does something different to the Flexion gimmick during a routine that bears absolutely no relation to the one David uses to bend objects that are different to the ones my gimmick bends… that I didn’t know about anyway!

Now that *is* funny Smile

I’m more than happy to sit down and chat about any issues you feel you have. I sent David a message saying so that but haven’t heard back. The offer extends to you too.
Paragon 3D - the most incredible Card to Clear Box you will ever own. Be fooled here: http://youtu.be/GQxRZ1OGkUo
The Silent Treatment - Digital Edition: this iconic routine just got upgraded! Watch - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=phTDUhX0m9o
Watch the brilliant effect, Rule of Three: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CytuXsCbL0 and order it from www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
Order the bar-raising DVD set 'Connection' at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
Jaz2005
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Thanks Jon without the (h)
Iphone auto corrector was responsible (honestly)

Let's just put this in context. I really don't have a great issue with Flexion. If I did you would have heard about it before now. Good luck with it.

I only posted because you were going on and on and on.

Now I have said what I wanted to say and read you response, I really have no further interest in discussing this further on here.

If you want to chat feel free to call me

Best regards
Jim
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Wizard Product Review from World Magic Shop » » Wizard Product Review 50 - 4-5-2011: (Concept 7, Sugar High, Flipper Card, Double Back) (0 Likes)
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