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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-05-07 23:12, landmark wrote: It wasn't intended as snarky (though it was somewhat rhetorical). IMO, there's not a good reason to do so. It would be different if class were being canceled by the District; however, neither of those is the case. The class is still offered; anyone who "needs" to take it is able to. And to the extent that any change is being made, it's being necessitated by the state legislature, not the District.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
Lobo, did you read the article in full? If so, then you are forgetting the part about what "elective" means. As an elective course the school board is free to remove that course (any elective course) without notice. Just simply defund it a remove it as curriculum altogether. This is what the students are worried about. That given the current "papers please" right wing temperment of the local/state government it will just cease to be. So they are fighting to prevent it from even getting that far.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
IMO, that's not "what they're worried about." They're offended that being taught in "only" elective classes is an insult to their ethnic pride (hence the multiple references to "second class" and "second rate" courses, and courses that put "their heritage" second).
As far as the "papers please" "right wing temperment," as someone who professes not to condone lawbreaking of any kind, I would expect that you wouldn't have a problem with a state law that does nothing more than permit local enforcement of what is already existing federal law - the requirement that resident aliens carry their alien registration (green) cards. Comments like this do tend to suggest that contrary to your stated position, you actually DO condone a particular type of lawbreaking. Edit: And yes, I've read the article a few times.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
These students feel they are being maginalized. They are speaking out. They are taking physical steps to be heard. They are occupying public spaces in protest. They are willing to face arrest for their beliefs. The founding fathers would be proud.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I'm inclined to doubt it, but who knows? For the sake of those who attend their schools long after these students are gone, I hope their actions don't result in the potential loss of funding their risking.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
Well this is going to sound weird, 'cause it sure feels weird:
I actually agree with Chance (jeebus, that was weird) about the whole thing with the papers. Being required to show the papers just because of what you look like doesn't sit well with me. It's something they did during the old Asian Exclusion days, which were a pretty dark time in our nation's history. That power has a historical precedent of abuse. I just don't like it when we keep doing things that have proven to be mistakes in the past.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
How you feel about these classes depends on your impression of what is being taught. I have not attended one of these courses. But based on what has been reported to be a popular textbook used in them, Rodolfo Acuna's, and based on the ideology of the groups that promote this sort of thing, I wonder if the American taxpayer should be footing the bill.
If you look at groups like MEChA or read "La Voz de Aztlan", I think you might take a more balanced view. These groups advocate a revanchist and irredentist ideology. They want to separate Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, California, Texas, and Utah from the United States, and form a new country, which they call "Aztlan," after the name of the Aztec Empire, which would be ruled by "La Raza" ("the race"). Some of the leaders of these groups openly advocate a racist policy towards other races, and in fact unashamedly celebrate genocide. The choice of a Nahuatl name evoking the Aztecs is of interest; there are about 1.5 million Nahuatl speakers today, compared with 500,000 Mixtec speakers, 500,000 Zapotec speakers, almost 1.5 million Mayan speakers (in Mexico and Guatemala), and a few hundred thousand speakers of other indigenous languages in Mexico. (Incidentally, among other loanwords, Mayan has given us "cigar" and "hurricane;" Nahuatl has given us "coyote," "chocolate," and "atlatl.") The Aztec Empire was not very popular with the peoples it subjugated, who participated in its overthrow, when they initially saw the armored and above all mounted soldiers of Hernan Cortes as semi-divine leaders who would help free them from being heavily taxed and then used as human sacrifices by their Aztec overlords. At any rate, the irredentist/revanchist ideology poses a threat to the United States and its citizens. I have no problem with its promulgation by MEChA and others, but I don't think that American taxpayers should be paying for it. Your mileage may vary. How would you feel about a mandatory course which taught that the fusion of Celtic, Germanic, and Nordic peoples in Great Britain produced a supreme "race" whose destiny was to rule over other races, and if necessary exterminate them? That's essentially what extremist groups promulgating an almost mystical concept of "La Raza" are advocating. And I know that some may come back and tell me that such Britannick supremacy was in fact the mandatory content of mainstream education, but it never was in fact, and the British themselves say themselves as serving the peoples whom they ruled. The record of British colonial rule in Africa and India is in general a good one, featuring honest, capable administration, and the introduction of traditions of parliamentary democracy and of judicial independence that have well served those countries who have been able to maintain them following independence. Woland |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
Yes, let's do what Woland suggests and pretend that the southwest has only ever been populated with fair skinned peoples that speak only modern English.
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
No, Chance, I don't suggest we pretend that at all. But let's not pretend that the United States received the southwestern states in a treaty agreement with the government of Mexico, nor that Americans have populated, developed, and governed those states rather well since 1848. Would changing that really be worth fomenting war? If those states had remained as parts of Mexico, they would now be places people were fleeing from, and not places people are flocking to.
Woland |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-05-08 12:45, Chance wrote: I think I'll use this post as my new example of how you react to rational argument and criticism. Usually, you either avoid the points altogether, or you make up a position that the person never said, and attribute it to him. It's unusual (and very economical) to do both in just 25 words. This was just about as Chance as it gets.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
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On 2011-05-08 13:58, LobowolfXXX wrote: So now I'm banned from using snarky, satirical comments? I can only be strictly literal in my replies, why exactly? Because your snark meter is broken? This familiarity is becoming invasive. Get a life already and stop trying to control mine. |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
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On 2011-05-08 13:07, Woland wrote: OK, let's talk about treaties. Let's start by talking about all of the treaties between the US and the native American indians. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2011-05-08 14:46, Chance wrote: I'm not trying to control your life; knock yourself out. In living *my* life, I'm choosing to comment on your posts. Sort of like the way you choose to comment on others' posts from time to time.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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ringmaster Inner circle Memphis, Down in Dixie 1974 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-05-08 00:20, Chance wrote: Good for them, and good for you.
One of the last living 10-in-one performers. I wanted to be in show business the worst way, and that was it.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On 2011-05-08 14:50, Chance wrote:... OK, let's talk about treaties. Let's start by talking about all of the treaties between the US and the native American indians. Right, how about an all "native american" production of Oklahoma while we're at it.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
And I know that some may come back and tell me that such Britannick supremacy was in fact the mandatory content of mainstream education, but it never was in fact, and the British themselves say themselves as serving the peoples whom they ruled. The record of British colonial rule in Africa and India is in general a good one, featuring honest, capable administration, and the introduction of traditions of parliamentary democracy and of judicial independence that have well served those countries who have been able to maintain them following independence. Please say you mistyped or something like that, because otherwise I think I just read a nineteenth century defense of the subjugation of other people.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
No, landmark, I did not defend the subjugation of any people. Honestly, tell me, do you think that either Ian Smith's or Robert Mugabe's administration of what is now Zimbabwe was better than that of the British administrators? Were not the British administrators less corrupt, more fair, and more competent? Was not the life of the people much better then than it is now? Were the people of Zimbabwe more "subjugated" under the British administrators than they are under Mugabe? Hungrier? Poorer? I'm not defending the "conquest" of what is now Zimbabwe by the British by any means. But it is what it is. The results of British administration and of Mugabe's subjugation of the people of Zimbabwe are what they are. I would think that Mugabe's supporters and apologists have more to be ashamed of than Britain's.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
It will be interesting to read the perspectives of the students' supporters if and when the District faces a major lack of funding that may be partially attributable to these student's actions.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-05-08 20:05, Woland wrote: I'm totally not understanding what you think Mugabe has to do with British Imperialism, other than that he was, perhaps, an unintended consequence. That their subjugation was perhaps less onerous and therefore a model of education?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
The point is, landmark, in the real world, where real people have to live, how they live is important to them. And before you blithely talk about "subjugation," consider that the quality of people's lives is not just an abstract term, it really matters whether the officials who administer the country in which they live are honest and fair, and subject to public rules and laws, or criminal and corrupt, and answering to no other authority than an appeal to violence.
But this is really a side issue, and has nothing to do with whether American taxpayers should be forced to pay so that students in American schools can receive a mandatory indoctrination into a racist, anti-American ideology. That's what's at stake in Tucson. |
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