The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Human species 'may split in two' (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
Magnus Eisengrim
View Profile
Inner circle
Sulla placed heads on
1064 Posts

Profile of Magnus Eisengrim
Thanks Woland. I just have time to skim the Baumeister's address, but I've seen most of these points before.

Please don't misunderstand my position as "men bad; women good" or anything like that. Morality is very difficult for humans--The Bible definitely got that part right.

As for gender differences, every human society has used and abused its members for one purpose or another. In ours, men have take the bulk of the spectacular danger while enjoying the bulk of the status, privilege and pleaseure.

We've made enormous progress and my daughters have significantly more opportunities than my mother could have dreamed of.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Woland
View Profile
Special user
680 Posts

Profile of Woland
Magnus,

Thanks. You may be certain that in no way did I interpret your comments to mean "men bad: women good." I think Professor Baumeister's article is interesting in that it discusses the ways that men's and women's roles in societies have developed - without suggesting a vulgar anatomic or physiologic determinism. I would tend not to think of it in terms of use and abuse, but in terms of how a division of labor permits an organized to accomplish more than a mob.

Woland
stoneunhinged
View Profile
Inner circle
3079 Posts

Profile of stoneunhinged
Quote:
On 2011-05-13 10:52, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
We've made enormous progress and my daughters have significantly more opportunities than my mother could have dreamed of.


As you know, I'm far from a relativist. But our "progress" in this regard is relative to our assumptions of what opportunities ought to be available to people, and the reasons they ought to be available. My general point above is that the roles must have been "negotiated" in some way in all previous cultures, and that this negotiation must have been made by women who were competent negotiators.

And the word "oppression" as used above was a poor choice on my part. "Exploitation" is also a poor choice. These are things I've currently been trying to work through, and I'm not yet sure how to express my thoughts precisely.

Remember the work of Aristophanes, for example. It's quite hard for us today to really understand what the Athenians would have found particularly funny or preposterous. But we can generalize two things. First, the humor is based upon a fully developed consciousness of gender roles, so at the very least we know that the questions we have asked in the last century or two had been already asked two millennia ago. We certainly have not "discovered" something new about how society treats women. Second, women are seen as powerful and competent negotiators.

I think that gender roles might be one of the most complex subjects out there. And if we are going to philosophize, we must be courageous enough (for real philosophy always requires courage) to question our modern, liberal presumptions. I do not wish to turn back the clock by any means whatsoever. But I do think we should understand the past with as much precision as possible.
stoneunhinged
View Profile
Inner circle
3079 Posts

Profile of stoneunhinged
I had a bike wreck this morning. I was thinking about this topic, noticed glass in front of me, swerved to avoid the broken glass, and ran into a sign. I'm not seriously injured, but I'm lucky that I'm not.

So much for courage and philosophizing. Smile

Anyway, just before the wreck, I thought that I could simplify this all by telling you what I'm really questioning. What I'm questioning is what seems to me the implicit assumption that historically, gender roles were defined by the males. Whether we talk about "oppression" or "exploitation" or whatever, we are still making the fundamental assumption that women have whatever status they have because men want it that way. And it is this fundamental assumption that I am questioning.

Please remember, too, that I am only questioning it. I have by no means made up my mind on the subject.
Magnus Eisengrim
View Profile
Inner circle
Sulla placed heads on
1064 Posts

Profile of Magnus Eisengrim
Hope you're all right, Jeff. Bike crashes can be really hard on a body.

Are you a helmet wearer? (Didn't see too many last time I was in Europe.)

Take care and convalesce. It probably wasn't Divine retribution.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
stoneunhinged
View Profile
Inner circle
3079 Posts

Profile of stoneunhinged
Quote:
On 2011-05-16 09:18, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

Are you a helmet wearer?



I'm gonna be now.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Human species 'may split in two' (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.1 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL