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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Marlo a Thief (8 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Justin W
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Lol magic Café
Opine Traveler
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It'll get back on track in a bit.
molsen
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Quote:
On 2011-05-23 17:57, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Has the topic changed to a short attention span theater production of "Marlo or Vernon- best troll ever?" ?


We must remember the definition of a troll. In this thread, trolling has been enormously effective in generating emotional responses. You point out the obvious fact, we all see it, yet we let the trolling illicit one emotional response after another.

Please Jonathan, do not take this personally, it is not directed at you as such. I chose to reply to your comment rather than most of the other obvious candidates (referring to trolling), because it was the last one posted.

The reason this whole thread has (d)evolved the way it did is because of the passion most people here have for magic. There seems to be two opposing opinions expressed, but that is merely an illusion.

Two facts (in no particular order):

a) We have the highest professional respects for the people that have created the tools of our craft/art; the sleights, handlings, effects etc. These people (like Vernon and Marlo and so many others) have been enormously generous in the way they have shared their energy and insight into magic.

2) The very tools (sleights, handlings, effects etc.) we depend on must be kept secret from all outsiders, as well as shared internally. When people are honoured (in the form of credit) for whatever small or big contribution they make, they are encouraged to share more. Again, Vernon and Marlo are fantastic examples of this.

And so it happens that a thread like this will sway back and forth with arguments of both a) and 2).

The point is of course as moot as debating "who was the greatest, Marlo or Vernon?"

I believe that none of us would find a) or 2) unimportant or irrelevant. Maybe some find a) more important than 2), or vice versa. But probably we all find them essential. As in mathematics (where these fierce debates happen too) we truly stand on the shoulders of giants. Yes, it is certainly interesting and important which shoulder belongs to which giant, but equally important is the fact that we can stand on their shoulders!

Some have been very discreet (referencing conversations with Malone without throwing names) others less so (referencing Persi and Dai taking a roadtrip). But, most have attempted to contribute what I feel is the essense of magic (not in a performance sense, but as an art we appreciate from the inside); the passion and burning love we all have for it!

Yes, respect for the persons is important. It is also a fact that we are all biased when judging others character.

Yes, credit is important. It is also notoriously difficult to get completely right every single time.

Credit debacles are here to stay. Sometimes they will be unintentional, other times not so much. The fact remains that there are enormous amounts of credit that rightfully goes to Marlo. He is nothing less in the slightest, if a particular sleight, handling, effect, etc. if found to have prior work.

The legacy of a person is normally judged on what they leave behind. Here is it clear that Marlo left behind hundreds (on this forum) of magicians with a burning passion for magic. Every single post in this thread is a testament to that. Thank you Marlo!

Michael
RS1963
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I never knew that story about Vernon and Persi Diaconis. The link to the interview certainly clears up any questions on that I would say.
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2011-05-23 13:14, seraph127 wrote:
No, my position is that Glenn himself has in fact, contrary to your misreading of his post, put himself up there with Marlo and Vernon, just as T said. If you want to continue blinding yourself to his egotism, and misconstruing what's clearly said, be my guest.

Sorry that is not the way I read things. And egotism has nothing to do with successful magicians - in my own opinion.
Quote:
On 2011-05-23 11:45, ASW wrote:
So, to sum up, Glenn: you're calling Doc Daley, Herb Zarrow and several other famous magicians thieves.

Nope - are you?
Quote:
On 2011-05-23 11:45, ASW wrote:
Despite the irony, I'm not going to froth at the mouth about such a claim as you and several others would do as a matter of instinct. Instead: discuss.

I don't see the irony - however I do see the stories. It is interesting how people will buy into a good story in magic.

Just as interesting as the name calling in my opinion.

Cheers!
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
RS1963
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Ahh nice back peddling now.
Artie Fufkin
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Somebody noted that Diaconis may have been 12 when he left on the road with Vernon.

Not accurate.

Diaconis was 14, Vernon was 65.

The few links to articles above clear up little, or nothing.
Vernon never detailed traveling with Diaconis, and Diaconis doesn't talk about it today.

I don't for a second suspect anything nefarious, and suspect that Diaconis had a home life (IF he even had a home life) that was likely worth leaving.........so he left.

The strange thing is that Vernon wouldn't see the implicit impropriety of a 65 year old man traveling around the country with a 14 year old boy that wasn't his son, and in fact wasn't a relative at all.
I think it speaks volumes towards Vernon's somewhat detached personality...........just plain old not seeing said impropriety, and perhaps more relevant, simply not caring to even think about it.

Perhaps the only hope for an accurate account might be David Ben's Book #2 of the Vernon biography. Certainly he has access to many of the facts, and Diaconis himself.
Whether this will translate into an accurate rendition or not remains to be seen............as there seems to be a hesitancy from all relevant parties to even discuss it.
Opine Traveler
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Well, I said that was my recollection, but it may have been wrong, and the three links I provided established that I was.

Was there an implicit impropriety to an elder traveling with a teen in 1959? Sometimes I'm amazed at all the things my parents let me do when I was a child...
ASW
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I think that the fact that many kids of Vernon's generation left home to start their working lives at 13 or 14 would have informed his views on the matter. For Vernon, it wasn't odd at all, and we should be careful not to interpret it through the lens of today's standard practice where kids normally complete high school (at least) before becoming independent. My great grandfather was working at a young age at the turn of the century and an even more distant ancestor was a powder monkey at the battle of Trafalgar.

Glenn: you simply don't realise the inference of your statement. If you were able to reread your post and apply basic logic you would see that what you said was that any of the famous magicians that accused Marlo of being slapdash with his credits were doing so as a ruse to hide their own improprieties. That may not have been your intention but that is the meaning. In point of fact I think it's fair to say your intention was to accuse anyone who discusses the issue (i.e. us) of being thieves but you were unable to perceive the logical conclusion of your statement.
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"

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"I would respect VIPs if they respect history."

Hideo Kato
RS1963
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The links with Perci's comments on the trip with Vernon explain it very well. What's to not understand? ASW nailed it in his post as well. Some just don't have the brain power to understand that. Sad that they won't allow themselves to me better educated on such things.
Stapper
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Quote:
On 2011-05-12 18:09, MagicT wrote:
I understand the idea of not flaming the dead, but many have said that Marlo was a thief. I am looking for hard facts as to why this is said. Was it said while he was alive? Was it said directly to him? Did he ever defend his position? If so, how, when, and where?

Thank You, Trini


Well, do not ask it (and flaming the dead), just learn and enjoy they all gave us ...
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2011-05-24 01:21, ASW wrote:
Glenn: you simply don't realise the inference of your statement. If you were able to reread your post and apply basic logic you would see that what you said was that any of the famous magicians that accused Marlo of being slapdash with his credits were doing so as a ruse to hide their own improprieties. That may not have been your intention but that is the meaning. In point of fact I think it's fair to say your intention was to accuse anyone who discusses the issue (i.e. us) of being thieves but you were unable to perceive the logical conclusion of your statement.

Sorry I don't agree - and I have found nothing in this thread that would change my opinion that Marlo was called a thief - and successful people are often called a lot of things.

Just a my opinion.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
ASW
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Quote:
On 2011-05-24 07:18, bishthemagish wrote:

Sorry I don't agree - and I have found nothing in this thread that would change my opinion that Marlo was called a thief - and successful people are often called a lot of things.

Just a my opinion.


You've found nothing in this thread that would change your opinion that Marlo was called a thief? We agree on something.

And I also agree successful people are often called a lot of things.

Not merely an opinion, but an empirical fact.
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"

A magician on the Genii Forum

"I would respect VIPs if they respect history."

Hideo Kato
R.E. Byrnes
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Notwithstanding all the priggish commentary, Diaconis turned out fine -- more because of the association with Vernon than despite it, apparently. I wish I'd had the courage/ability/opportunity to have done the same thing.
ancientmagic
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You know...we examine things often from a historical view, often a redactive one that that, versus a factual or totally analytical view. I would submit that it would be largely impossible to validate or disprove the allegations/facts regarding Marlo (or Vernon for that matter) because we are not there in their time. Additionally, I would seriously doubt that anyone could even assemble all the documents needed to do a "final" analytical comparison. In the end all we really can be is an expert on own point of view.

Best

John
"In victory you deserve champagne…in defeat you need it!" –Napoleon Bonaparte
Slide
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Quote:
I'm not aware of Persi ever publicly going into great detail about it, so as far as I know, we have no knowledge of how the two came to know each other

He went into pretty great detail on it in the Vernon documentary. It was pretty clear, to me at any rate, that he was pretty distressed about the entire experience. His final words on the subject: "I wouldn't take a million not to have known him (Vernon). I'd give a million not to know another like him."

Of course, it pales in comparison to what his kids had to say.

Bill Mccloskey


Posted: May 24, 2011 6:03pm
------------------------------------
Quote:
Persi has spoken so little about his childhood that we don't know what the circumstances were, we don't know what Persi's relationship with his family was, or even if his parents were alive then, or if they were, whether they acceded to his wish to travel with Vernon

Again, there is quite a bit of info on this. Persi stated that he did not tell his parents and that there were very distressed about what happened (as anyone who is a parent would understand). Persi also goes into depth about how he met Vernon, what they did on the road and how he felt about it on the Vernon documentary.

Quote:
So again, before telling other people to censure themselves...

Opine you got my point exactly.
Opine Traveler
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I wasn't privy to the source, so thanks. I hope I get to see it someday soon.
MagicT
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Is there a documentary on Marlo? I am very interested in seeing it if it does exist.



Thank You,
Trini
Trini Montes
Xsyllman
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Quote:
On May 12, 2011, pepka wrote:
Talk about a bee's nest. I can tell you from my first meeting with Steranko, that it's still a hotbed issue. All I said was it's a pleasure to meet you, now that you've signed my Nick Fury Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. #1, could you sign this, and handed him my copy of Steranko on Cards. What followed was a 20 minute rant All in all, that was the best comic book convention I'd ever attended.


Pepka, I had the pleasure of seeing Steranko at the East Coast ComicCon in Seacaucus, NJ, back in April 2015. Like you, I had him sign my copy of Nick Fury #1 and a few others, before asking him to sign a 3rd edition of "Steranko on Cards". What I didn't know at the time was that, according to him, he was never paid anything for any edition beyond the first. He didn't rant, but spoke at some length about his relationship with Marshall and Ireland.

If any bitterness or resentment remains about Marshall or Marlo, he did a good job of hiding it. One thing is for certain, though: If his ideas on cards was stolen, he certainly found (or, rather, created) a niche that no one can steal. His artwork is instantly recognizable and highly sought. Imitations, however good, are easily seen as such by anyone even remotely familiar with his art.

Anyone interested in meeting Steranko can likely do so by attending the annual East Coast ComicCon. Even if you're not a comic book collector, it'll likely be, as Pepka noted, the best comic book convention you've ever attended.

In spite of the fact that my copy was a 3rd edition, Steranko graciously signed and personalized it. (It was a gift for my cousin, who collects comic books but had no idea that Steranko was a notable name in card magic.)

For anyone who read comics during the 1970s: The great comic book artist Jack Kirby, co-creator (along with Joe Simon) of the Captain America character, created the Mister Miracle character based on Steranko's prior work as an escape artist and card magician.

[P.S. --- I realize that I'm coming to this thread very late, but as a relatively new user I had not seen it before. Pepka's interest in comic books prompted the reply.]
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