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magic4u02
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Art is a perception based upon the viewers response to it. One may say it is art while another may say it is a fine art of a higher level. It's still very subjective. Perhaps it is when the masses all have the same high regards and response to a work of art that it becomes known as a "fine" art or art at a higher level.

Kyle
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The Mighty Fool
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Aaaaaahhh.....

Now THIS is what the magic-discussion forum is all about. Dozens of magical minds....effervescing.

Strange we havnt heard from Potty yet.
Everybody wants to beleive.....we just help them along.
magic4u02
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I agree. This is so refreshing to have a "discussion" on a subject and really hear some great thoughts an idea without people yelling or getting upset. Great stuff here.

Kyle
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chill
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Art stirs the soul, magic stirs the mind. occasionally the two combine.
bob
I spent most of my money on magic and women, the rest i just wasted
magic4u02
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Bob: Awww good point. However, I would like to think an artist combines both more times then just occasionally. A good artist connects with the soul of the audience and it is the audience that responds back.

Kyle
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Skip Way
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This concerns me to a point. I've been fighting for years to get the state and national Council of the Arts to recognize Magic as a true Performance Art. Art Councils across the state and nation refuse to recognize clowning, juggling, puppetry and magic as serious performance arts worthy of support and instruction - and yet, each of these categories hosts sterling examples of genuine artistic merit.

True - Cut & Restored Rope is as artful as a paint-by-number Last Supper. I get it. But, every budding artist starts somewhere. Is every child who paints a picture, sculpts an ashtray or dances in Swan Lake destined for greatness? No. But, they are exposed to these arts through Art Council summer camps and programs. Where is the positive exposure to our art?

Performance Art is judged not by the achievements of novices and students but by the masters who excel in their field. Surely, the choreography of The Flying Karamazov Brothers, Jim Henson's many creations and David Copperfield's dramatic pieces are all as inspirational and worthy of recognition as a chocolate crucifix and a Campbell Soup can.

Meanwhile, we have these discussions within our own community debating the artistic value of what we do. If we can't see and support the artistic value in what we do, how can we ever hope to convince the art world purists that our skills and accomplishments deserve recognition? Are we our own worst enemy?
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

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Al Angello
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If you gave me a paint set, and a canvas all I would be able to make is a mess. By the same token a plumber with a bunch of magic tricks is nothing more than a plumber with a bunch of magic tricks. We are not all artists. This thread is just telling the plumber magicians of this world that anybody can learn TALENT.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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Skip Way
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I have personally replaced 90% of the pipes and fixtures in my house, but I am no where near qualified to call myself a plumber. Anymore than learning a perfect double pass makes one a magician. Skills can be learned. Without being exposed to plumbing skills early in life, I doubt that I would have been able to do what little I did. Promoting exposure to magic as a performance art at any early age is not too much to ask.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

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Al Angello
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Skip
Most of us dreamed about performing when we were kids, and an insurance salesmen who wants to get out of the house on weekends, and make a few bucks by doing magic is not an artist. He would probibly be just as happy doing something else.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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harris
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I wonder if a plumber inspired the use of drain stoppers(on chains) to replace tassles on "Chinese Sticks".

Note to self, turn off water going to washing machine before unscrewing the hoses.

Harris
stepping away from plumbing and electricary repairs...
and ...and ...and and away goes boredom down the dwain....(with apologies to Roto Rooter)

"help dwain, the bath tub...I'm dwowning...in bad puns..." said Nigel the puppet that rocks and talks...
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Skip Way
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Quote:
Most of us dreamed about performing when we were kids, and an insurance salesmen who wants to get out of the house on weekends, and make a few bucks by doing magic is not an artist.

I agree, Al...any more than my old maiden aunt finishing a paint-by-number Dogs Playing Poker makes her an artist. Okay. As I said...
Quote:
Performance Art is judged not by the achievements of novices and students but by the masters who excel in their field. Surely, the choreography of The Flying Karamazov Brothers, Jim Henson's many creations and David Copperfield's dramatic pieces are all as inspirational and worthy of recognition as a chocolate crucifix and a Campbell Soup can.

Now, what do either of your posts have to do with promoting and recognizing Magic as a serious Performance Art?
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

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Al Angello
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Skip
We agree, I'm totally with you on this subject. My posts here are for all of those who say that if you connect the dots anybody can be a magic artist.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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Skip Way
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Cool, Al.

Respectfully, I don't necessarily agree that one must be born with specific talents in order to achieve greatness in a given field. I do believe that the giants in various fields were endowed with natural talents that boost them over the top: Michael Jordan, Albert Einstein, Enrico Caruso and others come to mind.

While I agree with you that simply connecting the dots will not guarantee success as an entertainer, I do believe that others can learn a set of skills without natural talent and achieve a level of success. To think otherwise is rather elitist, don't you think?

Regardless, I still can't see what any of this has to do with promoting and recognizing magic as a serious performance art. If you're suggesting that teaching magic as a performance art through, for example, art council camps and classes is a waste of effort because only natural talent bears fruit, I couldn't disagree more.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

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magic4u02
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I do believe people can be born with a talent. However, I also believe that any person can acquire and learn enough of a skill set over time to become an artist at their craft. I do not think you have to be born with talent to be an artist. It certainly helps and makes it easier a progression, but one can learn to be an artist over time.

I think the magical arts in general are an acquired skill set you learn over time. Sure you may be born with a talent, but not so sure it is a talent of magic. It may be a born talent that assists you and enables you to perform better, but you are not necessarily born with the gift of doing magic.

In regards to magic as a performance art, I agree with Skip. It is a crying shame that magic is not taken seriously. When I tell folks I am a visual artist, I get take seriously. When I tell them I am a magical entertainer, I do not. To me this is a HUGE problem.

Certainly there are magical performers that have brought the magical arts to levels far above and beyond anything seen or felt before. These folks are the pioneers of the craft much like the great painters in our past. These are the artist of the magical arts. It is just a shame that there is not enough of a push to get folks to take what we do as a serious performance art form.

Kyle
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Al Angello
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Yes anybody can acquire enough skill to be a bad magician, but in order to get repeat bookings you have to be born to perform. Bad magic is a reflection on all magicians.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
Donald Dunphy
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A book that might be of interest to some is John Maxwell's book, "Talent is never enough." You can even read portions of it online for free at google books, or buy a copy at many bookstores.

- Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
Al Angello
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Donald
I couldn't agree with you more talent, desire, and practice are some of necessary building block that are essential to learn the art of performing magic, but my plumber, or insurance salesmen do not have any of those building blocks.

At our local juggling club I have met many members with more natural ability than I have, but they still wanted to finish college, to become doctors, and lawyers. Those fellows had many natural abilities to choose from, but not the desire to perform for a living.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
magic4u02
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Al: I guess we agree to disagree my friend. =) I just do not agree that “in order to get repeat bookings you have to be born to perform”. I can tell you flat out that I hated being on stage, was extremely shy and the last thing I ever wanted was to be the center of attention.

I was a deaf kid made fun of all the time. I was not born with the ability or gift to perform. I learned and acquired the skills to be able to perform. With this came the ability to entertain and the talent to make what I do “art”.

I get repeat bookings constantly because I am a good entertainer. How I got there was pure passion and a deep desire and LOVE for the art of magic. Doing “tricks” was not what I wanted to ever do. I wanted to entertain an audience and did whatever I could to learn exactly how to do just that.

Kyle

Posted: May 18, 2011 2:52pm
Aww "desire". Now THERE is a key word for sure. =)

Kyle
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Al Angello
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Kyle
We all have had bad experiences when we started, but those of us with a calling needed to return until we got it right. Telling people that anybody can do it is just giving false hope.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
harris
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Harris Deutsch
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As far as the "Arts Councils" viewing magic as an art, back in the 80's the Nevada Council on the arts used my Mime over Matter many times in their programs. I also toured for a while with my "Art of Illusion" program. AOI compared and contrasted the arts of Mime, Magic and Puppetry.

My art (and my body) has changed over the years. Last summer, I tried to bend over backwards from the waist while getting out of my strait jacket. I used to be able to do it standing up. I decided to kneel on the ground first. Smart decision, but when I tried to rise slowly up...my body and mind did not match.
Future shows allow me to get smiles from the parents and grandparents as I re-tell the event.

As far as paint by numbers...my answer is of course...

42.

and as far as the practicing your natural talents..it helps if you are a bit "CDO". (that is OCD but alphabetized)

Harris
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