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magic4u02
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Al: I'm not advocating that anyone can do magic or do it as an art. In that we agree 100%. I am saying that you do not have to be born with the talent to be an entertainer. I know I was not born with it. I acquired it over time. You mentioned a word that was a key to my growth. That word is "desire." I had a HUGE desire and passion for doing it and doing it well.

Kyle
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Skip Way
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Quote:
Telling people that anybody can do it is just giving false hope.

Al, telling someone they CAN'T do something before they try removes all hope. As far as I'm concerned, THAT is the greater sin. It's also basically what the art councils are telling us by rejecting our art. Both are prime examples of elitist and exclusive attitudes.
Quote:
...the Nevada Council on the arts used my Mime over Matter many times...

Harris, most councils will recognize Mime and abstract forms of puppetry as an approved art form. They will not, however, recognize or support Magic, Clowning or general puppetry as an art.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

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Al Angello
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Skip
I don't think I said that, but you are right.

Come to think of it the only person who has ever told me that I had what it takes was the little guy inside of me.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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Skip Way
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Okay, Al. Most likely I am totally misunderstanding what you're trying to say here. Certainly wouldn't be the first time.

It just sounds to me as though your posts to this thread are saying that if one isn't born with the natural talent to perform magic or juggle then that one can never hope to gain any degree of success beyond being a "bad magician or a "bad juggler." Your solution is not to give those who were born without this talent false hope - or, in other words - don't encourage them to try.

I don't understand statements like:
Quote:
...talent, desire, and practice are some of necessary building block that are essential to learn the art of performing magic, but my plumber, or insurance salesmen do not have any of those building blocks.

Two of the top money magic pros in my area are a paraplegic lawyer and a dental lab owner. Both are nationally known. Does the fact that they both pursued other careers and manage part-time magic careers mean that they weren't born with this natural talent?

I guess I'm reading too much into your posts.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

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Al Angello
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Yea give it a shot, and if it feels good you will come back. I think you and I have never disagreed on this subject at all.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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TrickyRicky
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TrickyRicky
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Quote:
On 2011-05-17 11:16, Al Angello wrote:
A good children's magician is an artist, and to be an artist you need to have talent. You can't buy talent at the magic shop, or learn talent from a book, or a DVD. No one ever wants to talk about natural born talent here, so I will not be surprised if everyone ignores me on this one ONCE AGAIN.

I quite agree Al.
I wondered how many magicians who ever bought and read all those courses that will make you a great success and turn them into great children's entertainer ever really worked.
You've got to have the talent and the know how to be a success. No course, and I don't care who it's from, will put you over the top or make you a success.
It;s you---yourself will do that and no one else.
Al is right.
Tricky Ricky
Damian
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I think any performance is potentially artistic. The key, I believe, is craft proficiency to the point of improvisation, and, or creation.

It is in the relationship between the performer and his material and the subsequent evaluation by his peers that reveals the artistic
merits.

It is worth noting that the audience of the family performer is not made up of peers; therefore, they are not qualified to determine
artistic merit.
Mr. Woolery
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Magic is an art. I reckon we can all agree on that.

If I just do the C&R rope routine from a kid's book, I'm not performing magic, I'm doing a trick. Whit Haydn does the same basic move, adds in the PNM, you've got his Pop Knot routine and that's really art in my book.

There's something special that makes a difference between a trick and magic. It takes talent, it takes inspiration, it takes a connection with your audience, and it takes the perseverence to keep at it until you really have it right. And then keep at it until you can't get it wrong. But real art is when craft ascends above what others can do and creates something wonderful. In performance arts, you are dealing with a very ephemeral medium. Art will be when I perform something and I know that nobody could do it better and my audience will love me for taking them out of the reality where ropes stay cut, metal rings can't penetrate one-another, and little balls don't vanish and appear beneath cups. When they truly believe in what they see me do, I'll be touching art.

I'm not there yet. But I aspire to art in what I do, both with magic and with my life.


-Patrick
Al Angello
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Richard
We are on the same page.

When I was doing open mike at the local comedy clubs they had a different crowd every week, and very few of them ever returned for a second try.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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TomBoleware
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I think Stephen King said it well when he said, "Talent is cheaper than table salt.
What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work."

And I think what he means is, it takes more than talent to be talented. Smile

Many of the better, most talented magicians, are still locked in their rooms practicing
sleight of hand. They will remain there and never do a magic show simply because talent
is at the bottom of the list when comes to getting things done.

With magic I think 'Personality' probably plays a bigger role than pure talent.

Tom
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Gary Shelton
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Tom, I agree about the perceived personality of the performer importance, but to really stand out takes that polish and originality,

I will always think of Del Ray, Jeff McBride, Lance Burton and David Copperfield's in his early years as artist.

As far as family performers go Ken Scott's show is art to me but all art is subjective.
Skip Way
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Great timing! On the heels of this discussion, the North Carolina Ballet Company announced last night that Las Vegas Illusionist Rick Thomas will design several themed illusions for the 2011 presentation of The Nutcracker. The state sponsored ballet company considers magic to be a performance art worthy of inclusion into their vaunted annual performance. This may open a door to finally convince someone that magic is worthy of state recognition as a performance art.

http://www.wral.com/entertainment/story/9616187/

Okay - I'm ready. Bring on the whines and cries of "Exposure!" and "Nonmagicians doing illusions!" There's just no pleasing you people.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

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Al Angello
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Tom
You are right it is a business, and to be successful you need to be a smart business man.

After sleeping on it, (and reading it on another forum) experience is very important too, so to be a magical artist you really need the whole package.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
idomagic
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Chiming back in here. This was about "Childrens Magic as Art" and it's turned into "Magic as Art." Cool, and a great discussion.

But totally off topic. I went to a U2 concert last night, the first I have been to since a raining night at red rocks back in the day. Bono has so much charisma it blows my mind. He is an amazing artist and I was simply stunned at the show.

I think charisma is just as important as artistry and artistry is as important skill in magic. Art is defined as the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

But check out http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/art and scroll down to 13... ironic huh?
Chad Wonder (Chad Wonder Magic, Inc)
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Skip Way
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"Children's Magic" or "Magic" - I pretty much see it as simply different styles of the same genre. I had the mother of a ten-year-old girl tell me yesterday that her daughter changed her gymnastics class to another night so she and her brother wouldn't miss Kids' Night at my restaurant. When I asked if it was really worth the change to spend 5 minutes with me, the mother simply said, "it's worth it to her." Clearly, something I'm doing has made a connection with these children. That connection appeals to them, attracts them - and that is what I seek in my art.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org
Gerry Walkowski
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I think that some magicians are capable of presenting children's magic as art. I've seen a few of them. Guys like Danny Orleans and Kidabra's own Arnie Kolodner immediately come to mind. The problem is guys like them are far and few inbetween. That's just the honest truth. Most magicians just aren't in this league and never will be be. Period!

When you walk out on stage with jeans and wearing an Hawaiian shirt, I'm sorry that's not art and never will be. Yet, that's where we seem to be stuck in today's magic kid show world. You also have every kid show magician performing the same 10 tricks. You know the routine: Puppet in hat, Axtell's drawing board and closing a birthday party with a chair suspension. There's nothing wrong with these tricks; it's just that every kid show magician is performing the same stuff. How is that moving art forward?

Also, I'm unsure how you're going to lift magic up as an art when you walk out with a tiny suitcase and your show has no real production values. Can some entertainers pull this off? Absolutely. The best of them have real acting skills, or are fantastic comedians who can connect with their audiences. Again, though, guys like this are rare.

I think many of us would like to be in this category, but unfortunately we're just day-dreaming.

Sorry for this sudden burst of reality. Smile

Gerry
TrickyRicky
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Quote:
On 2011-05-24 04:29, Gerry Walkowski wrote:
I think that some magicians are capable of presenting children's magic as art. I've seen a few of them. Guys like Danny Orleans and Kidabra's own Arnie Kolodner immediately come to mind. The problem is guys like them are far and few inbetween. That's just the honest truth. Most magicians just aren't in this league and never will be be. Period!

Also, I'm unsure how you're going to lift magic up as an art when you walk out with a tiny suitcase and your show has no real production values. Can some entertainers pull this off? Absolutely. The best of them have real acting skills, or are fantastic comedians who can connect with their audiences. Again, though, guys like this are rare.
Sorry for this sudden burst of reality. Smile

Gerry

Very well said Gerry.
Tricky Ricky
Skip Way
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Quote:
I think many of us would like to be in this category, but unfortunately we're just day-dreaming.


Reality or snobbish negativity? The Disney Empire, among others, began with a dream. There's one Copperfield, one Burton, One Orleans and One Kolodner - we get it. Then there are those of us who are very happy with our simpler, easier audiences. My passion is building fans, making connections and being the best hometown performer I can be. Many of us are quite happy in our little ponds and have no desire to be in Danny or Arnie's league. That in no way makes what we do any less exciting or professional than these artists.

Not every artist's work belongs in the Guggenheim or the Louvre - but, it is no less art.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org
Daniel Ulzen
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Quote:
I think many of us would like to be in this category, but unfortunately we're just day-dreaming.


If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.

Henry Ford
harris
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Harris Deutsch
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Art in the eye of the beholder..hmmm

A wrinkled suit, a hat, tattered shoes and coat rack.

Two people come to mind. Red Skelton and Jonathan Winters.

Now where is that iron and my ballet shoes. Actually I prefer Capezios.

Here comes the judge, here comes the judge.

The comic actor playing a judge ...to an audience that is afraid to laugh at his/herself.



Harris
with his tongue somewhere near his cheek
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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