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landmark
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On 2011-05-18 01:00, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On 2011-05-18 00:03, landmark wrote:
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On 2011-05-17 19:35, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On 2011-05-17 19:13, Andrew Zuber wrote:
Okay, so how are we supposed to react to this? Keep buying Hummers? Stand on our roof tops with cans of hair spray? Can we stop worrying about the environment now or something? Anyone who was ever flown in Los Angeles, as I have done hundreds of times, will tell you that air quality is a MAJOR health issue. When I read stuff like this and the author starts going on about the politics of the issue, it's hard not to imagine that he has an agenda that isn't purely scientific.


Anyone who's lived in Los Angeles for any length of time will tell you that air quality is vastly better now than it was in decades past.

You think that was just the natural course of events, or because of human action curbing car and other emissions?


Was this rhetorical?

Perhaps rhetorical, I hope so. In the context of this discussion it seems important to point out that there is human action possible that does affect the environment in a positive way, despite some (mainly conservative, let's be frank) efforts to derail such action.
Woland
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The assurance that human activity exerts significant effects on the climate reminds me of the story of the woodpecker, the redwood tree, and the thunderstorm.
S2000magician
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A theory based on a guess . . . that is now a known falsehood

Sounds like the plot to Day of the Jackal: the Sûreté determined that the Jackal was a gentleman named Charles Calthrop, tracked him from the UK through Europe to France, and killed him before he could assasinate Charles de Gaulle.

However, it turned out that Charles Calthrop was simply away on holiday in Scotland; he wasn't the Jackal.

So, sometimes the outcome is beneficial, and the conclusions accurate, even when the hypothesis is false.
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I think that regardless of anything scary in the future, we NEED to be good stewards of our planet. I like to think that perhaps we could leave the planet just a little bit better than we found it. Lofty goal? Perhaps but easily doable.

Now when rheoric gets involved I get a bit skeptical, OF BOTH SIDES. We have seen the doomsday prophecy fall flat many a time, we have seen just flat out lies from both sides, and for what? Pathetic really. I doubt very seriously EITHER side has our best interest at heart.

People who claim to champion evicence, simply look at that which suits their particular need or agenda. They forgive sins which would have the opposing viewpoint up on a cross. Again the word pathetic comes to mind.

Then of course we have to demonise the opposing view, and of course we must then belittle others in an attempt to make our own viewpoint seem superior. Happens here all the time. A constant game of "gotcha" and dueling Google searches. Again fairly pathetic.

Meanwhile I might add the whole time our planet moves along on our merry way.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Woland
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Dannydoyle,

When you look at the world today, and the number of people who live on the world today, compared with the number who lived on the world 100, 500, or 1,000 years ago, and compare the standard of living of the people who live on the world today with the standard of living of the people who lived on the world 100, 500, or 1,000 years ago - why the world is A LOT BETTER than it was 100, 500, or 1,000 years ago.

Unless of course you hate people.

Woland
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On 2011-05-18 12:23, Dannydoyle wrote:
I think that regardless of anything scary in the future, we NEED to be good stewards of our planet. I like to think that perhaps we could leave the planet just a little bit better than we found it. Lofty goal? Perhaps but easily doable.

Exactly - which is why I find it hard to understand the motivation behind anyone saying "Hey, things are fine, CO2 isn't a problem, it's all a scam." Really? So carbon dioxide emissions are good for the planet? Is that what we're saying? And if that's not what's being said, then what's all this about? Why not strive to make our earth a healthier, better place? If I leave a heap of garbage at a camp site, is that going to destroy the entire ecosystem? No. That doesn't mean I should do it anyway.

And I'm sorry, but there is no way that pollution levels today are lower than they were 1,000 years ago. The world may be a better place to live because we have better health care, indoor plumbing and heat, and a few other conveniences that make us comfortable and extend our lives, but saying the world is a better place to live now than it was then isn't related to the health of our planet.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-05-18 13:59, Andrew Zuber wrote:
I find it hard to understand the motivation behind anyone saying "Hey, things are fine, CO2 isn't a problem, it's all a scam." Really? So carbon dioxide emissions are good for the planet? Is that what we're saying? And if that's not what's being said, then what's all this about?


Lots of things are being said, depending on whom you ask, but I think the things that most reasonable skeptics (as opposed to deniers) are saying go something like this -

1. The degree of confidence is being overstated.
2. The degree of harm is being overstated.
3. Some of the proposed cures may be worse than the disease.

We shouldn't destroy the environment, but we also shouldn't destroy the economy. Climate change was brought forth into mainstream awareness and concern by An Inconvenient Truth, and scientists who were relied upon by Gore have long disclaimed many of Gore claims in the movie as exaggerated.

There's 'global warming' (the planet is getting warmer), and there's 'GLOBAL WARMING!' (the planet is getting warmer because of things that humans are doing and we're all going to die immediately unless we adopt any and all countermeasures proposed by people who have as much of a financial stake in the outcome as the deniers do). And somewhere in between, there's 'Global Warming' (the planet is probably getting warmer because of things we're doing, and we should be concerned.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-05-18 13:59, Andrew Zuber wrote:
And I'm sorry, but there is no way that pollution levels today are lower than they were 1,000 years ago. The world may be a better place to live because we have better health care, indoor plumbing and heat, and a few other conveniences that make us comfortable and extend our lives, but saying the world is a better place to live now than it was then isn't related to the health of our planet.


Obviously, the Industrial Revolution was a game-changer. Pollution levels in the USA are A LOT lower than they were 35 years ago. Your mileage in developing countries may be another matter altogether.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
kcg5
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A "known falsehood" known to whom?



Idiocy.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
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On 2011-05-18 13:59, Andrew Zuber wrote:

Exactly - which is why I find it hard to understand the motivation behind anyone saying "Hey, things are fine, CO2 isn't a problem, it's all a scam." Really? So carbon dioxide emissions are good for the planet? Is that what we're saying? And if that's not what's being said, then what's all this about? Why not strive to make our earth a healthier, better place? If I leave a heap of garbage at a camp site, is that going to destroy the entire ecosystem? No. That doesn't mean I should do it anyway.

The logic goes something like this. Things are so much better now for so many more people than 1000 years ago, that we have to work harder to pollute the planet in order to get things back into balance. Smile
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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No, balducci. The reasoning goes that the people of Asia and Africa and Latin America are just as "entitled" to the benefits of industrial civilization as you are, and the purpose of their lives is not simply to provide you with a bucolic, picturesque background when you vacation in their countries.
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On 2011-05-18 15:32, Woland wrote:

No, balducci. The reasoning goes that the people of Asia and Africa and Latin America are just as "entitled" to the benefits of industrial civilization as you are, and the purpose of their lives is not simply to provide you with a bucolic, picturesque background when you vacation in their countries.

And, yet, the people of Asia and Africa and Latin America are among those most concerned about man-made global climate change, and among those most supportive of initiatives to slow it.

I suppose they should just learn their place and listen to the rich westerners who are happy to tell them what they want or need.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Woland
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Well, balducci, that's true if you believe that the phrase "the people" means the corrupt & kleptocratic rulers of much of Asia, Africa, and Latin America, who hope to reap billions of dollars from climate-fear-mongering. The "man in the street" wants development, trade, and a better style of life for himself and his family.

And I don't think it's impertinent to add that the rapidly industrializing Asian countries, e.g. China and India, contribute a huge quantity of CO2 to the atmosphere.

For which I, for one, am grateful. Although I think the additional CO2 is not significant for the climate, I'll bet you a chocolate milkshake that marginal increases in atmospheric CO2 substantially boost plant life, and may be partially responsible for the "green revolution."
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On 2011-05-18 10:04, Woland wrote:
No. What I am saying is that ... (4) the AGW "community" is full of frauds and hucksters.

Woland


Unlike guys who claim to be rocket scientists when they are not...

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
S2000magician
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On 2011-05-18 16:31, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
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On 2011-05-18 10:04, Woland wrote:
No. What I am saying is that ... (4) the AGW "community" is full of frauds and hucksters.

Unlike guys who claim to be rocket scientists when they are not...

I used to be a rocket scientist; does that count?
Bill
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On 2011-05-17 19:28, Payne wrote:
Without evidence and peer reviewed articles to back up his claims Mr. Evans opinions are just that. Opinions. One is free to their own beliefs but not their own facts. If he feels that the science is somehow wrong he needs to supply facts and figures in support of his hypothesis. Not just opinion or belief.

Odd a "Rocket Scientist" wouldn't already know this.

You can find any number of Climate Denialist making simular claims. Odd though that none of them seem to have any viable evidence to support these beliefs.


Hmmmmm........... An Atheist would also know that it's not up to him to disprove "The earth is getting warmer due to mankind" or any other conjecture based upon this hypothesis. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Unless proven otherwise, he's probably correct.
Jonathan Townsend
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A skeptic would be looking for convincing arguments and a cynic would be asking who's due to get paid off by the latest round of scare spending.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Andrew Zuber
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On 2011-05-18 17:29, S2000magician wrote:
I used to be a rocket scientist; does that count?

Depends how long ago, since there's a statute of limitations at play here. For instance, if you were a cop in the last ten years, you are still legally allowed to shoot at and arrest people, even if you no longer work for the police force. Doesn't matter if you quit or were fired. It's one of the privileges of having worked in law enforcement. The same holds true for a former rocket scientist. Depending on when you last scientificked rockets, you may still be able to fly a space shuttle whenever you choose to do so. Provided you pay for fuel, of course.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-05-18 21:08, Andrew Zuber wrote:
if you were a cop in the last ten years, you are still legally allowed to shoot at and arrest people



Ummmmmmm...
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Woland. Please just shut up on this issue. I, for one, am sick of it.

Every time you bring this up, the thread invariably gets deleted.

I'm sure there's some dead horses out on the plains you can take a baseball bat to if you like.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.

* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
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