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Payne
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Plants might grow better with increased levels of Co2. But they are less nutritious so we would have to eat more of them to gain the same nutritional value.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/co2plant.htm

These nitrogen poor plants as well as the seasonal changes brought on by Global Warming will have an adverse effect on insects.

http://what-when-how.com/insects/greenho......insects/

Some will go extinct while others will move into new environments and reek havoc on the ecosystems that are not resistant to them.

http://ucanr.org/repository/CAO/landingp......text=yes

The rising temperature may also accelerate the the ongoing desertification of the planet. So many plants won't be able to benefit from the increased Co2 as there will be declining arable land for them to use.

http://www.greenfacts.org/en/desertifica......loss.htm
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2011-05-18 22:18, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Woland. Please just shut up on this issue. I, for one, am sick of it.

Every time you bring this up, the thread invariably gets deleted.

I'm sure there's some dead horses out on the plains you can take a baseball bat to if you like.


Solution. STOP READING! God why is that that all the libs want to change everyone elses behavior to suit them?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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And now we get to the dueling Google searches. Soon we get into demeaning behavior and we are almost done.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2011-05-19 16:31, Dannydoyle wrote:
And now we get to the dueling Google searches. Soon we get into demeaning behavior and we are almost done.


It is unlikely that posting in such a way as to argue from the authority of "google searches" will contribute much to this discussion.

The overview of our collective situation is that:

1) There is a claim made about imminent change in global weather patterns and a net increase in surface temperature due to man-made environmental factors.

2) There are over three billion people getting ready to start a huge upswing in their technological/industrial use of resources which are claimed to be a significant factor in this claimed environmental change for the worse.

3) There are no currently available (as in switch over tonight as simply as using coke instead of pepsi as your soda) replacement technologies for those which are claimed as the greatest factors in the claimed causal factors for the claimed environment changes.

4) There are obvious social and political factors of population management by way of taxation and limitation of technological usage which appeal to the baser instincts of those who "have our best interests at heart".

Your suggestions regarding how to keep (4) in check while addressing (3) and investigating (1) while not using nuclear weapons to remove the threat of (2) - which could arguably lead to a nuclear winter/reprieve from (1) are welcome.

Kindly add to the discussion - what do you suggest that you (and others might too) can do to help?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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Oh Lake Erie went from a fire on it to being one of the cleanest of the Great Lakes. From 1969 till 2010. It CAN be done. It is an economic boom to have fishing and tourism as an industry, so it was a SMART thing to do for the economic health of the place. Why not use it as sort of a guideline for the whole planet?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-05-19 18:12, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh Lake Erie went from a fire on it to being one of the cleanest of the Great Lakes. From 1969 till 2010. It CAN be done. It is an economic boom to have fishing and tourism as an industry, so it was a SMART thing to do for the economic health of the place. Why not use it as sort of a guideline for the whole planet?


I think you are right, Danny. A lot can be done through regulation of emissions and effluent, and by actively working to clean the mess we already have. Fortunately, a lot of this has been done and is being done.

Of course, we need to agree on the problem before we can mobilize the resources to effect a solution.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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True.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2011-05-19 16:29, Dannydoyle wrote:
... why is that that all the libs want to change everyone elses behavior to suit them?...


I often ask the same question about the cons. Smile
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Andrew Zuber
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I often ask why everything has to be liberals versus conservatives. We all live on the same friggin' planet. This issue, at its core, is about the ENVIRONMENT, not what side of the effing aisle you're on...yet some people want to make every single decision about politics, which is why nothing ever gets done and I can't turn on the TV during election season without seeing one side trashing the other. Sometimes I swear we're determined to divide ourselves and live in two separate worlds, constantly at war with the other side. It's too bad there has to BE an "other side." I think liberals, conservatives, democrats, republicans...all of those labels should be done away with. You wanna clean up the earth? You propose a way. You wanna run for President? You run. The moment you attach a label to your suggestion, some people will be all for it regardless of what it is, and others will hate it without bothering to even look at it. We're so quick to judge every book by its cover without even cracking it open to look at the contents, and I include myself in that group, which is something I need to work on. I am absolutely convinced that the labeling of everyone in politics is THE biggest reason we don't see more progress. We're too busy arguing. What a stupid waste of time and energy.

Rant over. For now. I'm off to blog about how much Fox News sucks.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2011-05-19 23:08, Andrew Zuber wrote:
... This issue, at its core, is about the ENVIRONMENT, not what side of the effing aisle you're on...


As best I understand the situation: the distraction, fear, leverage is "the environment" - the (social/political) cause is simple forfeit of resources and complicity in any agendas "to do what needs to be done". If you want to use a purely leverage model think of Pascal's wager. Vanity is, as usual, the fulcrum. Projected consequences are the leverage - a huge bad at some distance which makes it all but entirely unknowable except as a projected fear. Turning on your neighbors, giving up freedoms, money, technology are the "unfortunate necessities in this time where action is required".

Easier to think about it in terms of desired effect and methods used, IMHO.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
landmark
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Effect: convince spectator that carbon emissions are not raining down on his/her head.
Method: claim that s/he is being politically manipulated.
Jonathan Townsend
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L*,
I'm all for developing alternative technologies - and being more attentive to how we dispose of materials.
What I'm not for is encouraging panic and folks turning on each other.

The real problem is what to tell the three billion folks in places where the are just starting to industrialize. Or more to my point - what right do we have to tell them anything( !?) - though offering some less toxic technology would seem a better approach, IMHO.

J
...to all the coins I've dropped here
landmark
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"though offering some less toxic technology would seem a better approach, IMHO."

I agree.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2011-05-19 23:08, Andrew Zuber wrote:
I often ask why everything has to be liberals versus conservatives.


Tell me you are not this naive. The reason is because many of those involved in the "SAVE THE PLANET" movement are trying to fundimentally change the way this country runs. They do not like the way in which the country was founded, they do not like the country as it is now and want a totally different form of government. They can't get what they want done at the ballot box, so they want to legislate it and try to get it done through fiats and executive orders.

This is a fact and not in disupute. Payne is actually a pretty good example. Socialists want this sort of government control. Most of them use the democrat agenda to get things done because it is a step in the direction they want. Those opposed to this, are conservatives and the closest thing they have is the republican party.

Simply look at who is pushing the hard line agendas like "Cap and Trade" and it is pretty easy to figure out that there is more than save the planet involved. It is sacary, and at the core dishonest.

That being said not everyone involved thinks that way. For example I feel we need to be good stewards of our planet. There is stuff we need to do, compnaies we need to regulate and so forth. John does not fall into that hardline category of being a change the government type, but believes very strongly in save our planet. It is not everyone, but many at the heart of it certainly are this way. It is what makes it tough to sort out.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Woland
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The best of all possible sources of sufficient energy to power the world's economy is nuclear power. Since fusion power is not on line, that means fission power. A proven, tested, clean energy source.

Meanwhile, some folks apparently think that climate technology is more advanced than you may have imagined. From the semi-official Iranian Press:

Quote:
Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says that Western countries are plotting to generate drought in some areas of the world, including Iran.


“According to reports about climate, whose authenticity has been verified, the European countries have used certain equipment to discharge clouds and prevent rain-bearing clouds from reaching regional countries such as Iran,” President Ahmadinejad said on Thursday.

He made the remarks in the inauguration ceremony of a domestically-built dam in the central Iranian province of Arak.

Ahmadinejad said the matter would be pursued by Iran's legal authorities, IRNA reported.

The Iranian president said such measures by European countries are aimed at creating tension and hostility in the maritime borders of regional countries.


So there.

Woland
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-05-20 10:18, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-19 23:08, Andrew Zuber wrote:
I often ask why everything has to be liberals versus conservatives.


Tell me you are not this naive. The reason is because many of those involved in the "SAVE THE PLANET" movement are trying to fundimentally change the way this country runs. They do not like the way in which the country was founded, they do not like the country as it is now and want a totally different form of government. They can't get what they want done at the ballot box, so they want to legislate it and try to get it done through fiats and executive orders.

This is a fact and not in disupute. Payne is actually a pretty good example. Socialists want this sort of government control. Most of them use the democrat agenda to get things done because it is a step in the direction they want. Those opposed to this, are conservatives and the closest thing they have is the republican party.

Simply look at who is pushing the hard line agendas like "Cap and Trade" and it is pretty easy to figure out that there is more than save the planet involved. It is sacary, and at the core dishonest.

That being said not everyone involved thinks that way. For example I feel we need to be good stewards of our planet. There is stuff we need to do, compnaies we need to regulate and so forth. John does not fall into that hardline category of being a change the government type, but believes very strongly in save our planet. It is not everyone, but many at the heart of it certainly are this way. It is what makes it tough to sort out.


You sadden me, Danny. I frankly care very little about the US constitution and the way the country is run. I am a capitalist. But I believe that there is an important role for government in regulation of pollution, responsible use of resources, and in fighting systematic injustices. I don't think that this makes me the "socialist" or th enemy of democracy that your post implies.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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John, did you read the whole post, or stop at the first few lines? I SPACIFICALLY SAID YOU DO NOT THINK THAT WAY, and are not trying to change government, and are just a strong believer in save the planet.

PLEASE read the whole post, then think if it saddens you again and get back to me.

I said spacifically I BELIEVE that there is a roll for regulation and such!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
critter
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Just a thought on pollution in general:
I just know that there's no reason I should be sticky after swimming in the river. That ain't right.
I think "Ducks Unlimited" has the best record for actually getting water cleaned up.
Now, if they'd just tackle the Spokane River...
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-05-20 10:48, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
I frankly care very little about the US constitution


John-

You should move south...you'd fit right in!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-05-20 10:46, Woland wrote:
The best of all possible sources of sufficient energy to power the world's economy is nuclear power. Since fusion power is not on line, that means fission power. A proven, tested, clean energy source.

Woland

Proven? Clean? Did you miss the recent unpleasantness in Japan?
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