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The great Gumbini Inner circle 3062 Posts |
We HAVE free will, however God ALREADY KNOWS what are choices will be. I use this as an example when I try to explain free will etc. I whisper to a friend "He will catch what I toss to him." I then pick up my Bible and JUST CALL to another friend i.e. "Jim---here you go" Then I toss the Bible to him. He catches it. I tell my friend "You see Jim could have turned and NOT caught the Bible---but he did of his own free will catch it." Now if I as a mere human can know what my friend will do I feel confident that God who is so much wiser and knowing is able to create beings that have free will and yet know how they will chose at the same time.
Good magic to all, Eric |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
You do realize that virtually everyone who is physically capable if you say to them "Hey...here you go" and toss an object to them they will catch it right? Satanist would catch it, Wiccans, Athiest, my sister, Agnostics, Hindus, Budhist, pretty much everyone. What you have proven is hand eye coordination is common and it is more an unconcious action than a predestined action.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-10-18 21:35, The great Gumbini wrote: However, your analogy is flawed, because it ignores the fact that God (in the Christian view) is not only omniscient, but also was an omnipotent creator. Now, let's say that you're God, for the sake of this discussion, since it fits the analogy. As God, you could have created a universe entirely identical to this one, but with a slightly different "Jim." Let's call him Jim 2.0 Jim 2.0 would be identical to your friend Jim - would have made every choice that your friend made in his life, EXCEPT that at the moment you toss the Bible to him to illustrate your take on free will, Jim 2.0 would have dropped it. But with the power to do otherwise, and with knowledge aforethought, you chose to create the Jim that will catch the Bible. It's not a random Jim whose actions you're predicting; it's the always-catch-Bible Jim that you consciously opted to create, and THAT particular Jim will never do anything other than catch the Bible, which is to say, he has no choice. If you can't surprise God, you don't have free will.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Those in high places are in control.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-10-18 22:36, tommy wrote: lol Quit being a shill for the man.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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NicholasD Inner circle 1458 Posts |
I believe we have a free will and that nothing is predestined. For what purpose would God put us here to succeed or fail only to already know how we'll be judged in the end?
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Predestination was tossed out of Chritianity centuries ago and that is what lead to a lot of the reformation that took place.
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
MagicSanta, I'm not sure if you mean that predestination brought about the Reformation, or if the tossing out of predestination brought about the Reformation . . . . actually I had thought that predestination was an important part --one of the 5 basic principles-- of the theology of Jean Calvin, who was if I am not mistaken a post-Reformation, Protestant thinker . . . . Calvinism has only grown in influence, at least in the United States, and I wager that many "undifferentiated" Christians in the United States are sympathetic to some of Calvin's important ideas.
Respectfully submitted, Woland |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
If everything is predestined, we are not to be blamed for anything right?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-10-19 06:54, Pakar Ilusi wrote: Or credited.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Davit Sicseek Inner circle 1818 Posts |
It's worth reading Daniel Dennett on this question, especially if you are somewhat attached to the idea that you have free will, but don't want to evoke the supernatural in explaining things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Evolves He also has a good lecture on the subject for those that don't want to read the book. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cSgVgrC-6Y
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Based on the history I learned there was a basic belief in everything being preordained. During reformation that concept went from being dominant to a lesser role. Of course some still believe it. Predestination is contrary to Christian belief though.
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
But in answer to the original question, the choice is obvious:
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
MagicSanta,
Depends what you mean by "predestination." Jean Calvin wrote something in 1537, that was translated as follows in 1813: Quote:
When we attribute foreknowledge to God, we mean that all things have ever been, and perpetually remain, before His eyes, so that to His knowledge nothing is future or past, but all things are present: and present in such a manner that He does not merely conceive of them from ideas formed in His mind, as things remembered by us appear present to our minds, but really beholds and sees them as if actually placed before Him. And this foreknowledge extends to the whole world and to all the creatures. Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He hath determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal ***ation for others. Woland |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
I'm recalling back many years but what they meant by predestination is that everything in life is preordained to happened. That means if your life sucks, it was intended to be that way. The problem was it was often used as a weapon to control people, you kill off all the men in a village, it is Gods who ordained that it was to happen, not your fault. If you made someone a slave, that is how they were suppose to be and for them to try to move beyond it would be in violation of Gods will...etc etc.. The simple fact is if some were preordained or predestination had set forth that a person was to go to heaven, in the Christian ideal, then the acceptance of Christ, which is required per the New Testiment for salvation, would not be neccessary. You either were going or not going, nothing you do could effect that outcome because everything you do is previously mapped out.
Alister Crowley basically was told by his mammy that if he was bad he'd go to hell. He did some bad things, as all kids will do to some extent, and figured "if I'm going to hell then I might as well lead the band". Had he not been told it was predetermined then a different path could have been followed. |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
My brain hurts...
I've been thinking about this now and then since my parents passed away (five years apart). I look at an old photo of one of them and think, well, that's how he/she was at that point, but now we know how he/she ended his/her life. Therefore that's where he or she was headed all along. But then I get into the whole thing of free will. They both did pretty much what they wanted all along: they made choices as they went, based on their priorities at the time. And those choices, and the choices I made with them, led to how they lived their final years and how they ended their lives. So, looking at things the way they actually were makes me think that that's how they were supposed to be all along. Because that's how they ended up. Which (presumably) means that our free choice is based on "something" that makes us go in a specific direction, because, in the final tally, we will have ended up the way we did. For instance, if I had decided to go into architecture in college, instead of into theater, I wouldn't have gone into architecture thru the back door, and wouldn't have worked on some of the architectural jobs I ended up on, which (I like to think) made working life easier for probably several thousand people. I also wouldn't have worked on a number of jobs at Universal in Orlando; somebody else would have done them, and that part of the park wouldn't look the way it looks today. But it does. And years from now, there will be a record that it did look that way. Ouch. And this from a guy who still has a hard time with the microwave...
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Life is a series of paths and everyone takes one or the other. Most are for the most part insignificant, others save your life. Like they say, all paths, regardless if good or bad, lead to truth. People end up where they end up. If your parents made different choices they never would have met.
My dad is convinced that if he took my mother to dinner the night before she died that she would have lived. If she had not died the next morning then going to dinner would have been not even a memory.... |
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The great Gumbini Inner circle 3062 Posts |
We have free will, we have choices and we have consequences. If not we would not have laws. However God being God knows what the choices will be. Man is never done BECOMING who he or she will be until we pass. A lot goes into WHO we are or will become. We are capable of changing our minds and choosing wisely or unwisely. This is simply the way it is. I guess in a romantic kind of way it would be nice to believe in destiny---but what purpose would our lives have then? In the Bible God says "I set before you this day good and evil, life and death---CHOOSE life." Our choice is our free will.
Good magic to all, Eric |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
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On 2010-10-20 19:17, The great Gumbini wrote: Plenty. For those interested in non-free will position (from a Christian perspective, anyway) you can read the works of many, from Luther and Calvin to Whitefield to Spurgeon to modern day folks such as John Piper and RC Sproul, to name only a few. Just read carefully, if you are going to read
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-10-20 19:17, The great Gumbini wrote: The example you previously used to support this notion was an interesting one; the reason it's unsuitable is that the person might have dropped the Bible. You could have been wrong. This makes the "person throwing the Bible" a poor analog for an omniscient God. Instead, create a example where you absolutely can't be wrong - say, having a card selected using a one-way force deck. Now how much free will does the spectator have with respect to which card he chooses?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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