I'm not into hypnosis but thought this might be interesting for you guys.

/192860/250/Principal-uses-hypnosis-on-student-who-commits-suicide-a-day-late

Sorry wrong address

This should work
http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/arti......ay-later

It shows what happens when a person uses hypnosis outside of his or her scope of practice. I have no doubt that the hypnosis had nothing to do with the student's suicide. However when people who should have been paying attention but weren't--his parents, doctors, school counselors, etc.--go looking for a scapegoat, hypnosis is easy.

The article does state that he is a " clinical hypnotist". Does that mean anything? Once again, I know nothing about the subject so Its a serious question.

You´ll probably find he did numerous things the day before he committed suicide. Blaming the hypnosis for the suicide (to me) is as absurd as explaining it by saying:

"He had frosty´s lucky charms the day before killing himself"
or
"He rode a bike the day before the suicide".

i.e. I have EXTREME doubts that there is any connection whatsoever between the hypnosis and the suicide.

The article says that the principal of the school "helps" kids with hypnosis. It seems blindingly obvious that the kid started to get the help he needed much too late.

Bang on Mr. Kraig. I could not agree more.

The fact that most lay-people have absolutely no understanding of probability is in fact used in a lot of magic tricks.

Sadly there are millions of suicides worldwide every year without stop. One year it is bound to happen that the person did something that they can wrongly peg the suicide on to.

How many suicides have happened the day after seeing a hypnotist and people have not attributed it to the hypnosis? No one will ever know as they are not reported.

People generally have knee-jerk reactions to most things without any regard to the facts or reality. Sadly I don't see that changing any time soon.

There is a real danger for those that dabble with hypnosis that they WILL be blamed whether they were responsable or not. I heard a story from a well known hypnotist who had a claim made against him. It turned out to be a false claim. He said that the only reason he wasn't sued successfully was because the insurance company he was insured with put a private investigator on the claimants trail and found out that he wasn't injured to extent he was claiming. The hypnotist said if it wasn't for the insurance company he probably would've lots the case.

On another note. Some people are so deeply depressed that they "can't be bothered" to commit suicide although they have suicidal thoughts. It IS possible that an intervention using hypnosis or any other therapy can alleviate the depression just enough so that they can be bothered to actually do the deed.

Working with severely depressed people is not something I would advise or even attempt. I was recently asked to work with a young soldier back from Iraq. His mother was really stressed out after she told he threw himself in front of a bus. He escaped any real harm this time but asked if I would help him. I turned her down and told her to see her GP. My last accountant also had a son same age 21 in the army. He was a bit more successful and managed to kill himself.

Hypnotists or hypnotherapists should never work with these people without supervision or reffreals from a GP to make sure you are covered legally.On the other hand I don't see why they would want to work with this client group. I would rather leave it to the "established experts".

"There is a real danger for those that dabble with hypnosis that they WILL be blamed whether they were responsible or not."

Regardless of the capability of said Hypnotist, it will be up to the law to decide if Hypnosis was responsible or not. They will apply that rule to the greatest master of hypnosis of all time and everyone down the line.

So really just your usual scaremongering in trying to only apply it to some, whilst implying that the same doesn't also apply to a group you include yourself in.

"I would rather leave it to the "established experts"."

Of course you would and we understand clearly why you want it that way: To stop up and coming hypnotists affecting your gigs. Sorry MP but you have exposed your real motives on here making anything you have to say meaningless other than a rant to scaremonger anyone else starting up.

Yes and seeing the Simpsons on TV may relieve the depression enough for someone to commit suicide but we can hardly blame the Simpson as the problem is the person and their depression.

So as usually you are bringing in irrelevancies to try and prove your case.

The fun of just going out to a show could cheer them up enough regardless of whether the show is a hypnotist show or Disney On Ice! So where do we stop with this irrelevant scaremongering?

Correct me if I´m wrong, but I got the impression that what MP was saying was:

You can treat and get rid of depression using hypnosis/hypnotherapy BUT there exists the possibility that during the course of the "treatment" the client/patient/subject (call them what you will) may end up committing suicide.

Then, even if the law decides you are innocent (ref: Paul McKenna v´s schizophrenic subject) it could leave a great big slur against your name, and as happened in Pauls case it could seriously damage your career (i.e. you get blamed for what happened).

The "well established experts" are doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists etc. People go to them for treatment, but I´ve never heard of anyone blaming any of the afore-mentioned because someone committed suicide. Have you? (honest question, no sarcasm intended)

Even if MP is completely wrong in his idea that you might cheer them up just enough so that they actually get up off their arse and go and top themselves, should they decide at any time during the treatment to go and do it then this internet story illustrates it can have a negative impact. It´s made me seriously re-think what I´d treat if I ever became a therapist!

Clinical, in this context (like clinical psychiatrist), means that a person works with people rather than in a lab. A "certified" clinical hypnotherapist would mean that he has been approved to work with clients by some organization based upon his fulfilling the requirements of that organization. For some organizations this can be strict. For some it can be mild (reading their course book or watching their videos). For some it is worthless (just pay a fee, as was proved by a guy who lied on his application, paid a fee, and got certification for his cat).

A "licensed" clinical hypnotherapist generally means that someone is licensed by a governmental organization to practice hypnotherapy with individuals and/or groups. In the U.S., I don't know of any states that license hypnotherapy, however they do license some forms of therapy (in some cases with little or not practical training) and a person so licensed may use hypnosis within their scope of practice.

There is a difference between being or feeling depressed than being SEVERLEY Clinically depressed. The latter is someone who is mentally ill and is way beyond being able to rationalise and make sense of the world. "cheering up" just doesn't apply to these people. And anyone using these terms or equally as bad telling someone to "cher up" or "pull yourself together" really doesn't understand what that person is going through. Sometimes people are so depressed that they don't have the "energy" to actually carry out sucide. Therapy creates shifts and releases in in energy and could actually make the possibility of happening more likely. that's why some people are hospitalised and sectioned so that they can be monitored and treated through a severe depression. I have been told this by a psychatrist who works with severely depressed people. Also any hypnotherapy school worth its salt will tell you that severe depression is outwith the qualifications of a hypnotherapist mostly for the reasons above. Anyone suffering from depression coming for therapy should speak to their doctor first and and only work with the therapist if he/she approves. Its technically called "covering your ass" I have in the past helped set up government funded drug and alcohol abuse programmes and put a doctor refferal system in place. So that the organisation only ever worked with clients who's doctors said it was ok and they were kept informed of their progress.

As hypnotists/hypnotherapists I don't think we are qualified to work with those people and would leave it to the health professionals equiped to deal with it.

The Paul Mckenna case is totally different apart from being stage and not therapy Paul covered his ass from the start by abiding by all the rules and safety guidelines. Therefore no matter what the conclusion of the hypnosis he couldn't be sued for neglegence. It is possible that a therapist that didn't seek out the refferal from the doctor and didn't make clear to the client or the client's parents the risks and hazards involved with working with severely depressed or was unaware of them theirselves could be sued for neglegence.

Like I said I would never work with anyone who is "mentally ill" in any form.

I don't know the details of the above case but someone in a position like that as well as ANY therapist should have an intake process that flags up things like depression etc. And in most cases they should always seek a doctors refferal anyway. To hypnotise someone that's suicidal without finding out that they are suicidal then letting them leave is doing a bad job in the first place. I don't think hypnosis will be questioned more than likely professional conduct by anyone who is investigating this case. Again I don't know if that was the case just pointing out it would be "sloppy" work to do so and may even be negligent for someone in that position.

>>>>The "well established experts" are doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists etc. People go to them for treatment, but I´ve never heard of anyone blaming any of the afore-mentioned because someone committed suicide. Have you? (honest question, no sarcasm intended)<<<<<

To be honest I don't even know if what they do is the right thing. All I know is you/we don't want to be in a position where we are out of our depth and not equipped or qualified to deal with these types of people. Best keeping out of it chances are you won't be able to help them anyway.

Its also quite common for a significant number of teenagers to suffer from severe depression some of which lead to suicide. I would've thought someone in that guys position should always be looking out for it. These I imagine will be the "concerns" mentioned in the video of the investigating authorities was he applying the right procedures whatever they are in his job etc. Why didn't he find out about the mental state of the boy etc etc. I don't think hypnosis itself will come under any scrutiny.

Yeah, I've heard about it all over the place. It's why they get expensive malpractice insurance. The interesting thing is that if a person is licensed by the state as a Dr., Psychiatrist, or Psychologist they can do just about anything, even if it's outside of the area of expertise. On the other hand, if someone doesn't have that license, even if they spend ten years in study and practice in an area, they could get in trouble.

I understand totally what's been said and do NOT disagree with it (well most of it).
However, I choose to work with people with severe depression and who are suicidal. I prefer the doctor's approval but if I don't get it I work with them regardless.
Of course there are cases I will not work with but they are in the minority. Here is an example why:

Girl in her mid 20's tried to commit suicide by trying to strangle herself with a chord. The whole story is too horrible for me to write it up. Family ask me to help. I'm NHS registered but the doctor at the mental hospital informs me (over the phone in the presence of the patient) that "We prefer to work with our own professionals" and he is arranging for Anne (false name) to see a consultant psychiatrist.

Anne is released from the lock-up (she was sectioned)after 3 days and put into accomodation in the rough section of town on her own, and told that there is a one year waiting list to see the consultant.

Anne's mother is a psychiatric nurse at the same hospital (over 20 years) and tells me she is embarrassed and angry of her profession and asks if there is anything I can do as she feels helpless.

I agree to work pro-bono. Three sessions later Anne has painted her house, going to evening classes and laughing... a lot.

Had a few more sessions, that was 3 months ago and it's NOT all ok but looking a helluva' lot better than it was. I'll be seeing her again this weekend.

I've kept the story simple. It's all true. I'm still very angry. The main thing is I'm not remotely interested in hearing a doctor tell me what I can do and what I can't. I know what I can do and what I can't. Some prefer to think long and hard about it and I have no problem with that.
Me? I prefer to dive in. And when someone tells me there could be problems and I could end up being taken to court, my answer is: "I'll run to court!" We live in a society where the vast amount of people are terrified of screwing up, so they don't move. Which means they become inert. Totally inert. Unable to help or even think about helping.

We are an embarrassment to each other and that is simply a fact.

Its not that I am afraid I don't want the responsability on my head. I don't want the risk. I don't see myself as the answer to everybody's problem. I only have a finite amount of resources which I pour into where I want to go.

And those "grateful" parents might turn ugly should one day someone commit suicide. no way about it you will get some if not all the blame. You may even leave yourself open to being sued for negligence since you are going behind the medical profession's back.

I have NHS number and a Bupa number they are worthless. Ive had them for 20 years. I have no interest in working with severly depressed people. Ive done it I ve helped set up projects. It was the most draining and depressing job I ever did.

Although I agree with you Bobser about the mental healthcare system. And I am not saying I am right or have the answers its just my view. Just because we have certain skills doesn't mean we have to work with everybody that contacts us.

MP, if you read what you wrote back there a couple times over, you might find a little ideomotor response thing kicking in in around your gut. That'll be your conscience. And that's actually a good thing.

But you probably won't feel it strongly enough. Not like me. That's simply because we're different. You give fantastic advice on safety (nothing wrong with that), and I help people regardless of consequence.

In a way I actually envy you. You appear to have choice. People like me don't. We feel the need to help, to lift. And cannot NOT do it.

Understand what I'm saying (and others in here will absolutely understand this). It's not that people like me are lovely. We simply CANNOT refuse to help.