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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » You Really want to learn...anything? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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ed rhodes
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Obi-wan would be proud of you, my son.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
Eric Evans
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Hey Bobby, it's hard to believe, but by chance did you miss this post on your thread? If so (or even if not), I would appreciate a response. Thanks in advance.

Quote:
On 2011-10-28 17:50, Eric Evans wrote:
A couple of observations:

Quote:
On 2011-05-19 11:36, Bobby Maverick wrote:
Keep an open an open mind. don't buy into one mode of thinking....don't feel pressed because you do any style of show and others do something different.

Study everything you can from everyone that is successful. I don't mean success in money but they actually have a good show, whether its with a table or without it. don't get caught up thinking one way is wrong and another is right. This only leads to having a closed mind, and probably a terrible show. The evidence speaks for itself if you watch the videos that are posted...



Now I have no problem with this advice other than using video as the exclusive abiter. In "don't get caught up thinking one way is wrong and another is right" is good advice. Do you follow it yourself?

Quote:
On 2011-05-19 11:36, Bobby Maverick wrote:

Here's a way to tell if the show is good... Listen to the audience in the video, watch their faces. Look at their reactions. I don't mean when someone keeps saying "say yeah!" and they do. I mean the genuine responses. (If there are any.)If there is amazement, laughter and real happiness then I think there's a great chance you're watching a good performer.
I don't know what you think is "good", and you don't know what I think is "good", but I can tell you it shouldn't matter, because it's what the audience thinks that matters!!!
Look for genuine response and happiness, if you find it, you will see a "good performer".



Besides the fact that the audience should be enjoying the show (something that would seem fairly obvious) I don't know how you can judge someone from a video. I will allow for the fact that it is aspect, but beyond that, who knows if the video was "doctored" or the audience stacked in the performers favor. Chris Angel would be a perfect example of my point here. Chris's audiences seem to have genuine responses nevermind the fact that in some cases at least, those reactions are taped from other moments with different stimuli.

Quote:
On 2011-05-20 11:53, Bobby Maverick wrote:
I'm saddened because of labels, and I'm saddened by those who will not let them go, or try and bring them back into discussions because they've run out of things to say. So, lets get an old argument started over gain! And a pointless one at that!!!! No thanks.


I guess one of the best ways to keep your name out there is to create controversy. Here's a question..what if nobody cares about the controversy anymore? What if most of us have moved on? What about those that just want to learn? Now where's your juice?

It's hard to get a fish to bite on old bait.

A dear friend said to me a while back "If nobody has anything good to say, people will listen to who talks the loudest." I said to him "Yeah, but what happens when somebody does have something good to say? Doesn't it take away the noise, and the nonsense?" He said "I hope so, but its hard to talk over the noise sometimes..." I guess we shall see...

Sooner or later folks will open their eyes and hearts and see what's been said and done to them...and their gonna be upset. Why? Because they thought they had to make a choice when they didn't. They were told there were sides. There arent. They were led to believe that one is bad and the other is good. Not true. Both good.
This is how wars happen. Sometimes, enemies are CREATED.
I don't want any enemies. I want to work, and leave it better than I found it...its all I got.


Here's a simple question for you Bobby, who are "they"? For, either you prefer to avoid conflict by naming "them" (in which case why raise the matter at all), or you are creating a "straw-man" (so you can capitalize on the fact that you are seen as above the fray). I don't know anyone indulging in "labels" as you put it, but I'm open for correction in this regard. However, even if there are such people out there, there's nothing wrong with labels per se, unless they're inaccurate. Anyway it doesn't seem ethical to me to criticize others without giving them the opportunity to address your allegations by not naming them. Never mind the fact that I don't know anyone seeking out controversy just to keep their name at the forefront of everyone's mind. Seems a rather clumsy way to achieve name recognition, no to mention negative associations with that name.

Quote:
On 2011-06-05 22:48, Bobby Maverick wrote:
Getting back on point...

...Be sure the guy you're talking to or is doing all the talking is actually good at what he says he does...


This may be an overactive imagination on my part but here you seem to hint at who you think "they" are that creates the controversy of which you are standing above. Again, who are "they"? Why don't you pony up and just name who you consider to be purveying inaccurate information?

Quote:
On 2011-10-27 08:58, Bobby Maverick wrote:
Devious, I can see you're newer to this and relate on a somewhat novice level, but you are right it does take dedication. Only, I think the way you are referring to it is on a much smaller scale.

The dedication and study I'm talking about has almost nothing to do with weather or number of people. It has to do with seeking out the very best material and teaching tools you can find and being focussed on being as good as you can possibly be while honoring thise tools and materials.

The day to day grind on the pitch is what it is.


Now this post just seems to belie what your initial thread starter was all about. Who are you to determine conclusively and authoritatively at what point Devious is in his development without so much as video? I'm not meaning to be provocative here, just following the direction of your own reasoning.

You say there are no "camps" or "sides" out there and to paraphrase you (perhaps inaccurately), there seems to be only one way, your way: the way that is "good". Everyone that disagrees with you either is a novice, or has an axe to grind against you and/or your friends. I'm not saying this is the case, just my perception here so if I am wrong, my apologies in advance.

I look forward to your reply.

Best to you and yours.
Tim Friday
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My only question is what's with the picture of the creepy doll?
Bobby Maverick
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Yo!

I'm here... it's just been a busy busy few days. Sorry for taking so long to get back to ya Eric.

No hard feelings I hope.

The answer to all of your questions in the short and sweet version-

I have been speaking in generalities.
As for your overactive imagination, and perceptions there's no need to apologize for them, but they are wrong.


I hope all is good with ya, and hope you have a great holiday.
starksanity
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Wow, Mr. Maverick has provided an amazing feast of food for thought.

Quote:
On 2011-05-19 11:36, Bobby Maverick wrote:
Keep an open an open mind. don't buy into one mode of thinking....don't feel pressed because you do any style of show and others do something different.


The people who are successful on the street seem to be those who naturally don't care or "feel pressed" to do a specific style anyway. There are a few acts I have seen that seem to defy the definition of even being a performer. They are just living in front of everyone, and their skill (juggling was one of them) seems to be something they would have done anyway if nobody was around. I keep hearing about and seeing the videos of Pepe in London. He seems to have a lot of this. I've heard this same thought put another way: "do what you love and the money will follow."

Quote:
Study everything you can from everyone that is successful. I don't mean success in money but they actually have a good show, whether its with a table or without it. don't get caught up thinking one way is wrong and another is right. This only leads to having a closed mind, and probably a terrible show. The evidence speaks for itself if you watch the videos that are posted...


There was a book on mastery that said basically, find someone who is getting the results you want, then do exactly what they do. At first, as much as you think you do, you won't know why they are getting the results they are. So you SHOULD copy their every action (in terms of structure I mean, you don't have to clone them [though Pop Haydn suggests you do at first, and with great reasons!]) and follow every advice until you start to realize which things aren't getting you closer to your goal. I am not trying to contradict, just exploring here: for me and many others I have known in numerous fields, having one teacher is a great help when starting anything. So you can study everyone who has the success you want, but for your own sanity, maybe study one at a time? Let me know, Mr. Maverick, if that is an unnecessary distinction. In classroom settings with one message I'm sure its fine. I'm thinking of busy pitches (anywhere a big show can work, for example) you will get so many messages about what the "real secrets" are that you won't ever be able to sift through the information.

Quote:
Mario has been talking about Circus and I think its a wonderful idea! Just the things you can learn about body movement, and timing are priceless! Seek out some greats like Ahvner the Eccentric, Rob Torres (sp?), Pedro Tochas, the list goes on and on.

This is an art form (Busking) that is practiced everyday. It should be given more effort than just Magical ability. It is forged through hard work, determination, and talent. Not everyone can do it. Plain and simple. Anyone that tells you "anybody can do it" is full of it. Or, their standards of an actual "good show" are very skewed.


And, as with all art, what speaks to me may not speak to you. After all, we claim art status and then avoid artistic critique by our choice of venue. We play instead for crowds who demand commercial shows. I think that Busking, like Magic, is a craft. What we say with it makes it artistic. It is difficult, unappreciated, and completely worthwhile to get your vision in front of them. Nobody can share your vision, so that is what will make your show unique, in the long run.

Quote:

Here's a way to tell if the show is good... Listen to the audience in the video, watch their faces. Look at their reactions. I don't mean when someone keeps saying "say yeah!" and they do. I mean the genuine responses. (If there are any.)If there is amazement, laughter and real happiness then I think there's a great chance you're watching a good performer.
I don't know what you think is "good", and you don't know what I think is "good", but I can tell you it shouldn't matter, because it's what the audience thinks that matters!!!
Look for genuine response and happiness, if you find it, you will see a "good performer".


Best,

Bobby


I think I missed the context on this last paragraph. Maybe it was in a different thread? You must mean that we should film our shows, and then watch them later with the criteria suggested? Or are you talking about other peoples' shows? or a specific video of performances? Of course, watching live is preferred, correct? I think Eric Evans may have made that point as well.

I jumped the gun on my last commentary, you covered the opinion thing. Neither of our opinions matter. I don't know about happiness though. Max Maven says that they don't have to like you or be entertained. They must be interested. And you must be interesting, according to Max. (When Max said it, nobody was smiling or responding, but nobody got up and left either... and I don't think its on video, at least not for distribution.) Maybe the issue is that we are talking about the street? I don't think Max is a street guy. I would watch that street show. I might be the only one. I guess than my opinion would matter.

One last thought. In the art world their are critics and connoisseurs who can tell you, based on very objective and complex criteria that they all share, whether a painting is a work of art or not. And to what degree it is art. This is independent of whether a piece effects them personally. Their opinion is real, elite, and is considered "right." It does not, however, predict whether a piece will sell. The two are independent. So, in some circles, what the people think matters not one iota, and in others, what critics say has no value. We can gain insight from both.

Love the initial post, love all the thinking that has followed, and love the anticipation of seeing what will continue to come from this discussion.

Kris
Bobby Maverick
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Kris, I really try to look at every show I watch and see the good in it. The good from several prospectives. We always have something to learn.

And yes you're right I was not only talking about other folks videos but also videos of your own show (not yours specifically, but each persons own video). I think I get misunderstood as trying to poke at people when I'm trying to get people to poke at themselves as I poke myself. LOL!

Overall, I guess trying to see all forms of our art or least understand them is the ultimate path and goal at the same time.
starksanity
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Thanks for responding Mr. Maverick. A critical eye is key to improvement.

I am understanding better who your target audience is with these posts. I think. Some of the ideas may actually discourage a brand new performer, that's why I suggested focus on one person's work. But you were talking to performers who already have some sort of show and street stage time. That makes a lot more sense.

And Eric Evans is talking about a very detailed criticism, refinement, mastery process. A process so enormous that someone new to this would shy away if they understood how much work they were taking on. And how little it would be rewarded. Not an uplifting message for the beginner. Great for the perfectionist.

So I'm left trying to figure out this; to what extent should we be pursuing the entertainment desires of our audience, and to what extent should we be pursuing our own vision of what that audience should see?
Bobby Maverick
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As for the desires of our audiences and the desires of ourselves I believe they would be one in the same.

Think about it like this. If you love classical music and aspire to play beautiful music like Mozart, then it would stand to reason that the audience that would appreciate you and your music would appreciate that style of music as a whole right? Basically do what you do, and the folks that like it will stay and watch and listen. The folks that don't will move on. Or you will move until you find your audience.

Ever search for a radio station that plays music you like? It's usually tuned in through trial and error isn't it?

Do what you do. Do what you love. The audience will see it as you want them too if you love what you do. It doesn't mean they have to love it, and they may change stations, but there are others that wont change the dial once they've found you.

Is any of this making sense?
starksanity
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It's all very clear, and I really like the way you put it.

I especially enjoy the fact that you used classical music and radio as metaphors. I like it because many stations that play classical music are also the ones that ask for audience support, much like a busker. And that's amusing. Probably a lesson in there too.
Bobby Maverick
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Funny isn't it how we can find analogy in just about anything?



So it brings us back to my original post, and the discussion we should have been having.
Tim Friday
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Bump, I hope this discussion continues, whatever happened to starksanity?
Eduardo
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Quote:
On 2011-11-02 00:22, ed rhodes wrote:
Obi-wan would be proud of you, my son.


obim wam wand ban pround of yom, man san.. Smile
Bobby Maverick
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Just checking in here to see whats been happening!


Busy busy...
Bobby Maverick
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Just wanted to wish everyone a Happy Christmas, and New Year.

I hope each and everyone of you have a good one.
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Abracadabra! The ring is no longer on the string, that lady's name is now Martita, that dude right there isn't queer any more, and Santa is now really freaking real. How awesome is that?!? I got me some wicked cool magic powers and it's all cuz a this here stick. Watch this, I'll turn that little girl into a boy...

There's my gift to you all. Merry Everything and a Happy Every Day.

Now go out into the world and use your new powers only for the forces of good.
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2011-11-21 07:20, Eduardo wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-11-02 00:22, ed rhodes wrote:
Obi-wan would be proud of you, my son.


obim wam wand ban pround of yom, man san.. Smile


I can't add anything the little animated icon after your statement hasn't already said better.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
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