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bobser
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I know that many experienced hypnotised have been unhappy over over the past few years with the up and coming street hypnosis being taught and practiced. I never was one of those but I am sliding on to the fence ever so slightly (I just HATE when I have to be honest!)

Anyway, lets not go there in this thread if at all possible as we've hammered it to death and I don't think any of us have anything left to say that hasn't already been said.

BUT, I predict strongly that a huge problem is about to arise with some guys advertising their training on 'getting women, through hypnotic procedure'. I think Ross Jeffries is/was actually a cool guy and has always been talking about what was always actually out there and being used by BOTH sexes, in a highly skillful way, and I personally see nothing wrong with that.

But this is something different. This is NOT consensual! I find it tardy, dirty even. Uses very little skill other than hypnosis, which I do believe is an art than can be used for some wonderous things. But in the wrong hands... look out.

If you're a young guy and NOT a father you might not get this completely. But if you are out of your teens at least and have children, and you witnessed this being applied to your daughter then you probably know exactly what action you'd be taking.

I'd strongly suggest that if it's not entirely consensual then it is next door to rape, and I'm dumfounded that one or two guys are actually advertising the fact that they do this and have a desire to run courses on it in order toteach it properly(don't laugh).

I think the sex they might be experiencing in the future might be in a prison cell where their skills might not work out just right.
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Owen Mc Ginty
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Serious question - what´s the difference between what Ross Jeffries has taught, and what these new guys are teaching?



- Are they actually using inductions as opposed to the techniques that Ross taught? If that´s the case then I´d be inclined to agree with you, but unless you know what they´re teaching I don´t understand how you can draw the line separating Ross from these people.

P.s. if they are using inductions on unsuspecting lassies, I might be tempted to start using the Hong Won ZAP techniques, or practicing them anyway.

Save the jokes about exposure and not handing out the info for free.
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
Shrubsole
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Well as well as the legal standpoint, it's also very much a moral thing. (Obviously) As with Mentalism some are out to entertain with it whilst others are out to con with it.

Those who abuse any tool will always cause problems for those who don't. (You can't buy some chemicals now that you want to use legitimately because some other idiots makes bombs with them. You also get hassle buying alcohol and knives as others have misused them and now everyone has to suffer.)

I personally have never used any sexual angle in my act as I find it all so tacky. There are so many other very funny things that can be done, there is no need to have people dry humping things for a laugh.

Then we get onto this distasteful area that is under discussion here. Call me very old fashioned, but I prefer (in fact I insist!) that people have sex with me because they want to. Abusing hypnosis to change that is very very wrong and of course reflects badly on all hypnotists whether stage or street.

What can be done about that is another thing altogether. I understand that we don't want to get into this area but I don't understand what street hypnotism has to do with this matter at all. A corrupt fully trained Stage Hypnotist can abuse hypnosis if that is what they want to do, so what type you are doesn't really matter. If Street hypnotism where to stop tomorrow abuse of hypnotism would still continue by some. - Many on here have said that they learnt hypnotism just from a book, so there is nothing to stop someone who wants to just abuse hypnosis doing the very same.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
mindpunisher
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Its the street guys that are advertising it not stage guys. I don't know why everytime someone points out something questionable about street someone brings up stage hypnosis.

What Bobser has pointed out is that there may be a worrying trend developing from "some" of the street hypnotists who are now using hypnosis as a pick up tool and training others to do so. And since most street hypnotists are young guys it most likely would be popular and most likely to abused.

"I insist you MUST have sex with me because you really want to!".

Nice command that good bit of hypnosis.
mindpunisher
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As Owen has pointed out we really don't know what they are selling. I would be very surprised if they were advocating hypnotising someone then taking advantage although that is entirely possible. More likely to be the usual pick up artist techniques using hypnosis to get attention. Although I think that's a very risky thing to do. Mainly for the hypnotist. There are a lot of emotionally unstable women out there who may just cry rape. And it would make a good story for the media to get its claws nto.

The truth is you don't have to hypnotise women they are naturally drawn to performers of all kinds hypnosis holds fascination for them. When I was on the road I would often get women line up to buy me a drink and a few "offers". Last years show in the festival especially on opening night I was literally swamped by women at half time all wanting to talk to me. Plus the stage was also swammped with them volunteering.

I never took advantage of the situation. Not because I am an angel but because I was always aware of the media attitude to hypnotists and the possibility of a crazy female going to the press with a made up story. A very real possibility. We are no different from any other performers. You will get female attention. But unlike bands etc you have to be very careful.

I once had a girl friend for a while. When I first met her I had been seeing her for about a month. She phoned me up one night panicking. Her friends had got to her and told her all about the "dangers" of hypnotists and had convinced her I had done something to her mind.
Shrubsole
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And so MP drags the whole thread down to street hypnotist bashing route again.

Oh well, we tried to have an equal, level headed debate.

The point is that ANY hypnotist can do this if they want, That makes it about ALL hypnotists and their morals or lack of them.

All roads lead to "How can I make this thread into an attack that only applies to Street hypnotists and so stop them affecting my income" in MP's world.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
mindpunisher
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Bobser can you tell us who you are specifically talking about? Is it this guy here

>>>>> think hypnosis can be used to make anyone do anything, for example, in this video -> http://bit.ly/jIQ7Xx the hypnotist makes a girl show herself. <<<<


I might be wrong but I am sure he is a STREET hypnotist. The "International Superstar"...The courses talk about meeting on the streets and going out into the streets. All his videos are of him posing in the streets with very little hypnosis.

Are you sure this isn't a joke?

Although none of the videos on the site show anything worth watching.
dmkraig
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First, in most countries it's going to be illegal to hypnotize "girls" without getting permission from the girl's parent or legal guardian. Further, since children are usually in trances anyway, it requires specialized knowledge and skill to hypnotize a "girl." Third, if an adult uses any means to have sex with a girl or boy, even with the child's permission, it is still statutory rape.

Now, if you're talking about using clever language or skills to hypnotize adults or young adults, men or women (not boys or girls), the situation changes. Specifically, what's the difference between "Sleep! You will remove all of your clothes and have sex with me" and "Hey, ya wanna smoke some good dope?" or "How'd you like to be in movies?"

If you've actually seen any of the so-called "POA" experts, they rely one two things: building up self-confidence including using wonky gimmicks and realizing that dating/seduction is often a numbers game. This has been going on for centuries.

Nothing new, here. These aren't the droids you're looking for.
mindpunisher
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I think Bobser was meaning young adults. And I agree in that it is probably the same old pick up artists tricks that is being marketed.Although it is possible to hypnotise someone then abuse them I don't think that's whats being sold.
dmkraig
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MP, for every person who is hypnotized and then abused, there are thousands of people who are not hypnotized and abused. I don't think the massive rapes and murders in Somalia required any specialized hypnotic training, for example.
mindpunisher
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I'm not really sure what point you are making DM? There may be Rapes all over the world but it would still be wrong to sell training that encouraged it. Abusing hypnosis is one thing. Selling trainings that encourage and even teach others to is another. But like I said I don't think that's whats being sold. I think its most likely to be PUA stuff. I have no problem with that. In fact some of it is pretty skillful. I did play around with it myself a few years back I'm getting a bit long in the tooth now though.

Ross Jeffries is looking really old these days.
mindpunisher
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Here he is an interesting link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t62cnVDC0I
TimonK
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Hey there!

I thought I'd jump in from a young guy's perspective. I am underage and a stage-hypnotist. Occassionally I do streethypnosis, too, and of course I have the same interests as any other guy of my age. So at some stage I stumbled over Ross Jeffrie's Material and all the 'Hypnosis to pick up your dream woman' stuff and so on. Anyways, I never bought any of the training courses as it seemed to expensive for me. I also didn't like the way the sites were made up ( every second line reads 'BUY NOW!' or 'ADD TO CART NOW!' ). So I can't comment first hand on what they are selling.

What I can comment on though is, that bobser is right as there certainly is a trend of people getting into 'Pick up Artistry' and apparently using covert hypnosis to pick up women. I recently am asked by mates and people who saw me perform if I read Ross Jeffrie's stuff or if I could teach them how to use hypnosis to approach girls. Since the thought disgusts me from a moral point of view I always say no. At one stage though I had the opportunity to see two guys I know 'at work' with their new found skills ( the training programme, bought for only $499 PLUS extras in value of $1.000! or not. ). Their 'work' was more a joke than anything else. IMHO, saying "Hey. I'm ABC, you wanna get into bed with me now?" would have had more chance of working than what those guys were trying to do.

I've seen another guy work and the girl he walked up to was staring at him the whole evening anyways. He 'got' her and in the end gave credit to his 'hypnosis skills'. What really happened? I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the girl was attracted to him anyways and that he was confident ( since he believed he could hypnotise her ) and they ended up getting together which would probably have happened anyways.

I imagine that most of the readers of this material won't be extraordinary in character. Some won't be confident, others won't have a good memory and others again might just be creepy. Near to none of them probably would understand what they are reading in the material offered on the net ( if there is anything to understand and if it's good ). So those would have a hard time already using it I believe. So, the majority of the 'users' will most likely fail anyways ( nervosity, no confidence, don't remember their script ).

As many others here said already a lot of the stuff sold out there is also the same old PUA stuff being sold again. Some of it is skillfull and very interesting to read, others is kind of wonky. I don't object to the PUA stuff really as I see that kind of stuff on the same level as maybe rethoric skills. To me PUA is just somethign that boosts the users confidence after all. Obviously, if you're confident to approach women you're going to get more women, too.

To sum up ( and I hope what I said was somehow understandable ! ) :

Yes, there is a trend in the culture that leads to more and more people looking into PUA and hypnosis to pick up women. Most of those will either fail on their first attempt and give up. Those who don't will fail sooner or later anyways, once a situation comes up for which their script didn't prepare them. Others will read the material and throw it away since they can't see it working.
Those who actually are able to work the material effectively should know better anyways and will most likely be above the age of picking up women anyways.
I'm sure there will be some guys out there who actually abuse hypnosis to get women but probably not near as many as one might think.
One more thing - there is also a trend in our youth culuture coming up that involves being really nice and romantic again (: you see, not all young men are evil and just out to get a new one every night!

So, I guess that's what I have to say about this from the point of view of a very young man who understands hypnosis and sees some of those things happen live !

Best greetings,

Timon.
"But overcome space, and all we have left is Here. Overcome time, and all we have left is Now. And in the middle of Here and Now, don't you think that we might see each other once or twice?"
- Richard Bach, 'Jonathan Livingston Seagull'

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Dannydoyle
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Wow.

I am not going to step into this pie fight but I will say only this. IF you are selling something like this, then clearly you are despirate to sell merchandise. The fact is simply that someone would wake LONG before you had a chance to do anything under hypnosis. Now this is not to say that a person will not try, or it would not give hypnosis a bad name or bad press or a jury would understand this but it is just what it is. Despirate people trying to sell crap to slightly more despirate people.

If you are talking about using language to con people into having sex with you it will quickly become evident that the closer you apply your technique to closing time, the higher success ratio you are going to have.

If it is being sold as such (and if bobser says it is I believe him) it is pretty pathetic.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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If it is being sold in the way Bobser fears then I agree. Its all pathetic but it appeals to a evergreen market drive. Young guys seeking attention confidence and sex.

I loved some of the things Ross Jeffries did because it was more to do with giving someone a powerul experience than "con".

However I have watched chat shows on TV where people had been abused by psychotherapists who used hypnosis to have sex with their clients. I remember years ago there was one guy who filmed sexual acts on some of his clients who were oblivious. Another female on a TV chat show/ documentary spoke about waking up in the middle of performing a BJ on a psychotherapist. It was many years ago I saw this so I can't remember the actual programme. It might've been on Opra.
Dannydoyle
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I believe John Edward was on Oprah as well wasn't he? Does that mean he actually talked to the dead?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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That doesn't mean the person didn't experience the sexual assault. I think the therapist was actually charged.
Owen Mc Ginty
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A real "hypno-the-rapist".
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
mindpunisher
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Its pretty common apparaently by the-rapists although I don't know how common using hypnosis.
dmkraig
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Great post, Timon.

I would just like to add that people like Jeffries are simply capitalists. They saw a need and are fulfilling it. There's no difference between him and the advertisers who said that "Things go better with Coke!" in order to sell flavored, carbonated sugar water at inflated prices.

Further, it's not just young guys attracted to the POA adverts (and I agree with Timon and am TOTALLY turned off by the ubiquitous BUY IT NOW! attitude on internet adverts from POAs and, for some reason, people selling anything to do with hypnosis/NLP or items you'd see on TV infomercials). It's also older gents who consider themselves failures in romance, like 35-year-old Trekies still living in their mother's basements.

Actually, if you deleted the spurious POA crap from what some of these guys are selling, much of the approach--building self-confidence--is quite good. Similarly, if you broaden the term "seduction" to a more respectable "increasing rapport," some of the techniques are the same as you would find in books by NLPers or hypnotists trying to help you improve relating with others.

Unfortunately, some suckers end up spending lots of money before they see what was going on and realize they can actually find positive wheat among the POA chaff. But you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince.
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