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gdw
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On 2011-05-29 23:46, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:43, gdw wrote:
congress has laws about the limits on freedom of expression, and peaceful assemblies.
You have to be granted permission from on high to exercise your rights. This is america, remember? Land of the free so long as you do what we tell you.


Is it your position that one should be able to show up at the Jefferson monument when it opens and scream obscenities until it closes?


It's is my position that these are the inherent conflicts and contradictions created by "public" or "state owned" property.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:46, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:43, gdw wrote:
congress has laws about the limits on freedom of expression, and peaceful assemblies.
You have to be granted permission from on high to exercise your rights. This is america, remember? Land of the free so long as you do what we tell you.


Is it your position that one should be able to show up at the Jefferson monument when it opens and scream obscenities until it closes?

Is it your position that one shouldn't be able to dance there? That is the issue. We're far from any kind of murky line.

@Cutts May I invoke a citizen's arrest next time someone does a French Drop by the Memorial?
gdw
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On 2011-05-29 23:45, Tom Cutts wrote:
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As for the ones saying they weren't warned, those people were on the other side of the memorial when the police were threate-I'm sorry, warning, so they were not, themselves, warmed.
Wow, stepped right in it there you did. Video clearly shows the couple dancing was instructed repeatedly they were not allowed, yet they continued. And they weren't the ones thrown to the floor. That would be the clearly resisting person, on multiple levels.

You ae blinded by your own propaganda and that of others, gdw. The truth escapes you.


Tom, they were told to stop, and then arrested, and told they had been given a warning. They said they were not warned. This is because when the officer have what he called his warning, he was not talking to them. They were about 20-30 feet away at that time.

Your claim had to do with the warning. You say I stepped in it, and then want on about everything but the warning. Were did I even mention them being the ones thrown to the ground? Please, try to keep up.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-05-29 23:52, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:46, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:43, gdw wrote:
congress has laws about the limits on freedom of expression, and peaceful assemblies.
You have to be granted permission from on high to exercise your rights. This is america, remember? Land of the free so long as you do what we tell you.


Is it your position that one should be able to show up at the Jefferson monument when it opens and scream obscenities until it closes?

Is it your position that one shouldn't be able to dance there? That is the issue. We're far from any kind of murky line.


No, after a sentence like:

Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:43, gdw wrote:
Besides, didn't you know, congress has laws about the limits on freedom of expression, and peaceful assemblies.


The first question is whether gdw believes that there should be no limits on freedom of expression. If not, then the discussion on where those limits should be can begin; but if so, then I submit that most of us are at the "agree to disagree" point already.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:52, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:46, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:43, gdw wrote:
congress has laws about the limits on freedom of expression, and peaceful assemblies.
You have to be granted permission from on high to exercise your rights. This is america, remember? Land of the free so long as you do what we tell you.


Is it your position that one should be able to show up at the Jefferson monument when it opens and scream obscenities until it closes?


It's is my position that these are the inherent conflicts and contradictions created by "public" or "state owned" property.


Without public property, the questions of freedom of speech or assembly become moot. Unless you're suggesting that people have a right to free speech on private properpty?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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I was hoping to find something, somewhere, that would document a hatred of dancing on the part of Jefferson. That would be sweet. Unfortunately, it appears that he was okay with it (at least for unmarried ladies ... he did write that married ones should be too busy for that pastime).
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-05-30 00:07, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:52, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:46, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:43, gdw wrote:
congress has laws about the limits on freedom of expression, and peaceful assemblies.
You have to be granted permission from on high to exercise your rights. This is america, remember? Land of the free so long as you do what we tell you.


Is it your position that one should be able to show up at the Jefferson monument when it opens and scream obscenities until it closes?


It's is my position that these are the inherent conflicts and contradictions created by "public" or "state owned" property.


Without public property, the questions of freedom of speech or assembly become moot. Unless you're suggesting that people have a right to free speech on private properpty?

Only on their own property.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Tom Cutts
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On 2011-05-30 00:01, gdw wrote:
They said they were not warned. This is because when the officer have what he called his warning, he was not talking to them. They were about 20-30 feet away at that time.
wow, I guess you don't view what you post (but his doesn't surprise me) right there a foot away they are told to cease. They ignore and are cuffed. Wow, I'm so surprised. Try to keep up... With what you post. Smile
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-05-30 00:38, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-30 00:01, gdw wrote:
They said they were not warned. This is because when the officer have what he called his warning, he was not talking to them. They were about 20-30 feet away at that time.
wow, I guess you don't view what you post (but his doesn't surprise me) right there a foot away they are told to cease. They ignore and are cuffed. Wow, I'm so surprised. Try to keep up... With what you post. Smile


Tom, I said they were told to stop. That's called an order. The warning was at the beginning of the video. You know, the part where the cop said he was warning them?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2011-05-29 23:13, gdw wrote:
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On 2011-05-29 22:44, Dreadnought wrote:
Guy should not have resisted an officer.


Or maybe the officer shouldn't have assaulted him in the first place? No, the violent reactions to peaceful actions can't possibly be part of the problem.


When did that happen?

I don't know what the law is they were violating. I can imagine it was something akin to creating a public disturbance and the peace and tranquility.

I do know that when a police officer or any law enforcement officer, at least here in the United States, gives an order one needs to comply. Should that person not comply they are resisiting an officer and at that point an arrest can be effected.
Peace

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Dreadnought
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What is misconception that a law enforcement officer is expected to give a warning? If, anything, the warning comes with the presence. The presence being the uniformed officer there with badge. Once that presence is established, then the first level of force is established.
Peace

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Scott

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Dannydoyle
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You also don't have to give a reason at the time of detention.

It is always amusing when people try to protest or whatever and never know they are crossing a line. Once that line is crossed into resistance then all force necessary to make an arrest is what will be used. It is no longer about "dancing" or anything other than the resistance. So they were not "choked by cops for dancing" but rather for resisting.

Also they obviously did it in order TO PROVOKE the cops. Be careful what you ask for...
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
gdw
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On 2011-05-30 09:39, Dreadnought wrote:
What is misconception that a law enforcement officer is expected to give a warning? If, anything, the warning comes with the presence. The presence being the uniformed officer there with badge. Once that presence is established, then the first level of force is established.


I don't think anyone was arguing they deserved a warning (though considering many laws out there, it could be hard to otherwise know you might be breaking one.) They (the two holding eachother while swaying) were told they were warned, though they were not the individuals he did warn. Tom was simply implying they were lying when they denied the cops claim that they were warned.

The officer seemed to believe that him speaking to a few people means he's told EVERYONE.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Dreadnought
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Vascular Neck Restraint Take Down and the Georgia State Trooper PR24 Take Down used it several times. I also love the hypoglossal nerve pressure point control tactic, perfect when someone is on the ground and still resisting.
Peace

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Scott

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Dannydoyle
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He was speaking plenty loudly.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2011-05-30 10:19, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-30 09:39, Dreadnought wrote:
What is misconception that a law enforcement officer is expected to give a warning? If, anything, the warning comes with the presence. The presence being the uniformed officer there with badge. Once that presence is established, then the first level of force is established.


I don't think anyone was arguing they deserved a warning (though considering many laws out there, it could be hard to otherwise know you might be breaking one.) They (the two holding eachother while swaying) were told they were warned, though they were not the individuals he did warn. Tom was simply implying they were lying when they denied the cops claim that they were warned.

The officer seemed to believe that him speaking to a few people means he's told EVERYONE.


Warnings prior to arrest do not matter. That is just a courtesy. The only warning that matters is the warning to drop a weapon. I instructed officers to give that warning only once, then shoot to kill.
Peace

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Scott

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Dreadnought
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On 2011-05-30 10:20, Dannydoyle wrote:
He was speaking plenty loudly.


That he was, and plainly.
Peace

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Scott

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Kevin Connolly
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On 2011-05-30 10:19, gdw wrote:
Quote:
O


I don't think anyone was arguing they deserved a warning (though considering many laws out there, it could be hard to otherwise know you might be breaking one.) They (the two holding eachother while swaying) were told they were warned, though they were not the individuals he did warn. Tom was simply implying they were lying when they denied the cops claim that they were warned.

The officer seemed to believe that him speaking to a few people means he's told EVERYONE.


That's your problem, you don't think.
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Dannydoyle
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On 2011-05-30 10:20, Dreadnought wrote:
Vascular Neck Restraint Take Down and the Georgia State Trooper PR24 Take Down used it several times. I also love the hypoglossal nerve pressure point control tactic, perfect when someone is on the ground and still resisting.


The Georgia State Take Down looks like it would dislocate a shoulder, but it is one of the best moves. It looks much more harsh because of the leverage and the aparant jerking going on, but it is fantastic.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dreadnought
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All true. Although, anytime a police officer has to use hands on force, it always looks worse than it really it is. I only used the GST Take Down when a subject was so recalcitrant, usually fighting or assuming a fighting posture, that the only way was to get him or her to the ground as quickly as possible to be cuffed.

Our department eventually elevated the use of a chemical weapon, in our case Freeze+P, before hard empty hand measures because it made for a more docile suspect and the chances of him/her and the officer getting injured were greatly reduced. So, had that guy in the video in question been in New Orleans, he would have got a face full of tear gas and then taken to the ground. In fact, most of the perpetrators in the video would have been gassed, had they been in New Orleans.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
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