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Dreadnought
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Suicide is indeed bad absolutely tragic for all those involved. Euthanasia is just suicide in a what is thought to be pretty word. My heart goes out to them and their families. I try not to be judgmental but a big part of me says euthanasia is for the gutless and spineless. It is the culling of the herd.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2011-06-01 12:02, gsidhe wrote:
I see it as a very selfish act.


Or vengeful. Which is kind of the same thing, I suppose, but with a higher scoville count.

But I think a lot of suicides are not really a situation in which one murders oneself, but in which a disease like depression murders the victim.

Otherwise, I agree with everything you wrote.

It's a complicated issue, and to be honest, I don't really trust GDW's motives on this.
Payne
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I've always thought it strange that we "put down" animals who are suffering. Claiming "it's the humane thing to do". But we don't allow people with debilitating terminal diseases suffering immeasurable pain the same consideration. Thinking it somehow cowardly or against god(s)s "plan" to end ones life when one sees it appropriate.
I'd rather go out with some form of dignity than to go through weeks or months of untold agony and deterioration.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-06-01 14:30, Payne wrote:
I've always thought it strange that we "put down" animals who are suffering. Claiming "it's the humane thing to do". But we don't allow people with debilitating terminal diseases suffering immeasurable pain the same consideration. Thinking it somehow cowardly or against god(s)s "plan" to end ones life when one sees it appropriate.
I'd rather go out with some form of dignity than to go through weeks or months of untold agony and deterioration.


The significance of this analogy is twofold - in addition to the point that you make about the "humanity" of it, there's also the fact that in the case animals, we make the decision for an animal that might, if it understood the situation and could communicate, prefer to live with the suffering; whereas with human beings, we're talking about people who have actually made the decision for themselves.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Right, Payne.

If this thread teaches anything, it is that we should make a clear distinction between "euthanasia" and "suicide".

They're not the same thing.

And again, I distrust GDW's framing of the issue in his original post. In fact, I'm beginning to dislike him as a poster. He is either intellectually immature, or a troll, or both.

And yes, I'll put my money where my mouth is, and debate him on any issue, anywhere, and any time. He's a kid with so much time on his hands that he either trolls the Magic Café or needs an intellectual mentor to tell him he is full of sh!t. And I'm tired of it. I believe in free speech as much as anyone, but lets call a tree a tree and a stone a stone. GDW is either a troll or a moron. One of the two.

My guess is that he's a moron. But who knows?

Maybe the moderators should decide. GDW, why don't you report this post?

Either that or go to college or something. You're not ever gonna be an intellectual by stealing stuff in a magic shop.
gdw
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Not sure what you think my motives are, but I'm curious.

And, "stealing stuff in a magic shop" ???
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-06-01 14:42, stoneunhinged wrote:
Right, Payne.

If this thread teaches anything, it is that we should make a clear distinction between "euthanasia" and "suicide".

They're not the same thing.


All (voluntary) euthanasia is suicide, but not all suicide is euthanasia.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-06-01 11:28, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-06-01 07:48, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-06-01 00:59, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-31 23:13, gdw wrote:
Wow, not how I expected this to go, at least not so quickly.


You're so transparent. You're a cold reader's dream.


???


Good. We like that, keep it that way.


If I'm so transparent, particularly in the post you quoted, would you care to enlighten us?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2011-06-01 15:03, gdw wrote:
Not sure what you think my motives are....


A perfect example of discombobulation. I don't need to know your motives to question them. The burden is on you to tell us why you brought up a subject that you were so hesitant to bring up. Why here? Why now? Why do you give a flying copulation what we think?

Lobo, not all killers are murderers, but all murderers are killers. Right? Ain't no point in pointing that out.

This thread angers me greatly. But that's personal, so I apologize.

GDW, next time you should start a thread on euthenasia. Don't use the word suicide. My life has been affected by suicide. Intensely. It may be the most important influence in my life. Screw Internet forums and child-men anarchist intellectuals who want to provoke empty discussion. Screw them and the horses they rode here on.

Suicide cripples those left behind. Euthanasia brings relief.

I ain't philosophizing, friends. I'm speaking from the heart for a change.

Not that y'all deserve it. Screw the lot of you.
acesover
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Stoneunhinged


I have disagreed with you on many topics and have had heated debates with you. However after reading your posts on this topic I am truly sorry for your loss and the sorrow and turmoil it has caused you. I can tell you are speaking from your heart.

I will keep you in my prayers this evening.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2011-06-01 15:04, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-06-01 11:28, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-06-01 07:48, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-06-01 00:59, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-31 23:13, gdw wrote:
Wow, not how I expected this to go, at least not so quickly.


You're so transparent. You're a cold reader's dream.


???


Good. We like that, keep it that way.


If I'm so transparent, particularly in the post you quoted, would you care to enlighten us?


You're looking for a fight (argument).
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
Jonathan Townsend
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Gdw, you're doing a fine job of getting people to speak up about whether they take responsibility for their own choices - either directly or by way of projection onto others or ... by way of "the law" as if that makes a thing personally right or wrong or just punishable.

I don't wish anyone to suffer, anyone to be forced into having no options but to suffer.
I don't make any pretense at a right to judge whether it is right to put obstacles in the way of someone who wishes to end their suffering.
I am simply not that vain.

As the notion of euthanasia has been brought into this discussion - I feel it awkward to decide just what "good", the "eu" in that word is which justifies taking life away from another person. They are not "pretty"? Their behavior does not amuse/conform and so to prevent them from continuing to annoy and worse, having children which might acquire that trait, they should be terminated for the good of society?

Anyone with a smidgen of experience in this realm might reread my earlier post about dealing with the leftovers of "other" processes.

I don't want to get into the issues of those whose greatest concern is potential fretting over the dead after spending so very long neglecting the living.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-06-01 16:31, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-06-01 15:04, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-06-01 11:28, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-06-01 07:48, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-06-01 00:59, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-31 23:13, gdw wrote:
Wow, not how I expected this to go, at least not so quickly.


You're so transparent. You're a cold reader's dream.


???


Good. We like that, keep it that way.


If I'm so transparent, particularly in the post you quoted, would you care to enlighten us?


You're looking for a fight (argument).


You got that from me expressing surprise that the comments went where they did right off the bat? By the way, in case I'm not as transparent as you think I am, what I mean by 'where they went' was, besides your's and Tom Jorgenson's comments, was to humour. How is that looking for a fight?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-06-01 16:09, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-06-01 15:03, gdw wrote:
Not sure what you think my motives are....


A perfect example of discombobulation. I don't need to know your motives to question them. The burden is on you to tell us why you brought up a subject that you were so hesitant to bring up. Why here? Why now? Why do you give a flying copulation what we think?

Lobo, not all killers are murderers, but all murderers are killers. Right? Ain't no point in pointing that out.

This thread angers me greatly. But that's personal, so I apologize.

GDW, next time you should start a thread on euthenasia. Don't use the word suicide. My life has been affected by suicide. Intensely. It may be the most important influence in my life. Screw Internet forums and child-men anarchist intellectuals who want to provoke empty discussion. Screw them and the horses they rode here on.

Suicide cripples those left behind. Euthanasia brings relief.

I ain't philosophizing, friends. I'm speaking from the heart for a change.

Not that y'all deserve it. Screw the lot of you.


This is actually EXACTLY why I was hesitant to post it. It is a touche subject, close to many, as I said in my initial post, myself included. Why here? Because I find the Café occasionally has good discussions on topics, and I thought this was a topic that was worth being discussed. Why now? Because it was recently that I found and read the article at the link. Why do I give a flying copulation what you think? Because, as I said, I find he Café has good discussions, and I value those, and the views that get expressed here. If I didn't, then I wouldn't be posting and reading here.

As for the use of the word "suicide" over "euthanasia" in the thread title, there was no intent there, it was not a deliberate choice to make a statement. It was used for one reason and one reason only, it's the phrase used in the article and it's headline:
"Woman selling 'suicide kits' reignites right-to-die debate"

There was no intent to offend or upset any one, in fact I was going out of my way to avoid it by not chiming in with any opinions on the matter myself.
In fact the ONLY things I have done in this thread are, state that intent to keep my opinion out of it, comment on the direction of the discussion, and ask questions of others looking for clarification.

I completely understand such a discussion bringing up emotions in people, and I empathize with that. That is why I have gone out of my way to avoid provoking any one's emotions.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Dreadnought
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Quote:
You got that from me expressing surprise that the comments went where they did right off the bat? By the way, in case I'm not as transparent as you think I am, what I mean by 'where they went' was, besides your's and Tom Jorgenson's comments, was to humour. How is that looking for a fight?


Just so you know, two classic signs of deception are the long winded answer to a simple question or statement and the answering of a statement or question with a question. So, it is interesting how you don't deny looking for a fight.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2011-06-01 17:45, gdw wrote:...
I completely understand such a discussion bringing up emotions in people, and I empathize with that....


Not a fan of the "i know how you feel" type statements here - Smile Smile

Usually said by those whose behavior leaves one wondering if they know their own feelings.
If you want to know someone else's feelings - try asking.

I know you can at least read the sentences above. As to understanding them... that remains to be read.

Please folks, give eachother the simple respect of sharing their own feelings as they see fit.

BTW, here's another well founded fear for the real world - bullying by sending others that kit. Kindly let them ask. What one might imagine as offering help when not requested can be very effective cruelty.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
gdw
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Jonathan, the statement says I understand that the topic can bring up emotions. I don't see how acknowledging that the topics of suicide and euthanasia can stir up emotions should be a problem.
Is the issue really that I said "I emphasize with that?"
My life has been touched by suicide in several ways. I don't see how suggesting I could understand the emotions the topic brings up is any more an issue than someone who lost someone, say, in a car accident suggesting they can empathize with another who has lost someone in a similarly unexpected way.

I understand that it is unlikely, if not impossible, to know EXACTLY how someone else feels, but does that make the suggestion one empathizes is inconsiderate?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Jonathan Townsend
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Seriously smurfy there
http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-157496......25407616

Amazing what folks can think they know about what others are feeling
...to all the coins I've dropped here
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-06-01 18:10, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
You got that from me expressing surprise that the comments went where they did right off the bat? By the way, in case I'm not as transparent as you think I am, what I mean by 'where they went' was, besides your's and Tom Jorgenson's comments, was to humour. How is that looking for a fight?


Just so you know, two classic signs of deception are the long winded answer to a simple question or statement and the answering of a statement or question with a question. So, it is interesting how you don't deny looking for a fight.


No, I am not looking for a fight. Better? Though I'm sure you will have another excuse to dismiss that.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Jonathan Townsend
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Get over yourself gdw, it's not all about you. there's an issue - and it does not have to be all yours or even about you at all. try stepping out of the way and let others process their experience and share what they choose.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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