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Fin Veteran user 322 Posts |
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On 2011-06-09 09:51, Justin W wrote: Yes, my primary motivation for putting the LINK to the video up in THIS THREAD was to prove the move could be done, which was a subject of debate in this thread. Makes sense to me. Feedback would be a nice bonus. But my primary reason for posting the video, and my other videos, online, on youtube, in the first place is for feedback/criticism. Of course I didn't mention that before in THIS thread since the thread is not about my desire for feedback, is it? This thread is about Mystery Mark's colour changes and other vids/products. We wouldn't want to go off-topic would we! I hope that clears things up. I'm now working on my "Alchemy" by Ben Seidman. No doubt I will search out a thread discussing that, and post my video of "Alchemy attempts" there, to share insights and to get feedback. And if there's a thread where someone says its not possible, I will probably find that thread interesting and be compelled to post my video there also to show people that it can be done. I think I see a pattern developing here! ;-) |
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Fin Veteran user 322 Posts |
Mystery Mark saw my attempt at his Bertram Shadow change on youtube and kindly offered to show me via video chat a few ways I can improve it and iron out some problems I was having. He did it several times himself and it was quite clear that he is in fact real, as are all of the stunning moves he showed me in what I can only describe as an incredible 1-on-1 tutorial. The change is beautiful and the more I practise it the more flexible it becomes.
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2011-06-08 23:21, Fin wrote: Fin-- here is brutally honest critique. Please do not take offense. The quoted statement indicates that you do not have the discernment necessary to decide when a sleight is ready and when it is not. Therefore I would advise you to take the videos down. Second, you are doing the Hurricane Change incorrectly. I'm pretty confident in saying this since I learned the finer details of it from Harry. I was lucky enough to know Harry Levine fairly well and I've seen him do the move in person and in live performances. I've even seen him do "Dennis The Menace" several times. It was a thing of beauty. And that's all I have to say. SEY P.S. For those of you who have the "Prepare To Bleed" issue of Trapdoor, the trick WAS called "Dennis The Menace", right? |
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Pritpal New user 1 Post |
[quote]On 2011-06-12 01:08, Steven Youell wrote:
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If I remember correctly, it was simply "The Menace," although the patter did mention Dennis. In any case, a fantastic piece of magic. |
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Polo New user 6 Posts |
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Hugokhf wrote: It's many major vanish devices mixed to one. will not say more because of exposure. He showed me a clean (exactly, clean but limited) version of this last night on Tinychat and it looked exactly like it too. He couldve done that in the video too. Quote:
Hugokhf wrote: None of their videos is editing. they perform all the tricks they do and they do them exactly like that on SKype and Tinychat too. Quote:
Remotea wrote: That was edited by a professional video editor: Dave Jones of VideoFX Universe. Really, check the credits. I'm sure they must have paid a lot for that joke. Quote:
Andrew Musgrave wrote: You go around saying that in every thread about Mark and when a skeptic says he has been proven wrong you ignore that fact. From what I see read and hear everywhere Magic Video Depot and you did more fraudulent stuff to Mark then one person could even do. You didn't even ask Mark to do anything for you personally like me like he said in here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&forum=2 Quote:
fnydm4 wrote: I bet you they didn't. Mark told me he had a private conversation with Jonathan Kamm, Kammagic, one of the old regulars of MagicVideoDepot that openly put in forums that Mark's a fake. After the conversation involving exposure Jonathan now agrees that the Phantom and Flash are very possible as shown in the videos. You can see a bit of the secret if you look careful in the videos too. Quote:
Steven Keyl wrote: It isn't Andrew's job to claim the videos to be faked too. The guy proves everything if you ask him nicely, so he did to me. Why is it that the more status you guys have, the less thinking you put into what you say. The least to do is question it like many but I don't see a question mark coming from you guys. Quote:
BillMcCloskey wrote: It isn't that difficult to do that smooth. I think Fin here can tell that Mark can in fact do it this smoothly from the video chats I and seemingly he had with him. Quote:
Steven Youell wrote: You totally didn't get what Fin said and he said it tons of times in here too. He put the video on YouTube for feedback, which Mark and some others gave him, but he put it in here to show the change isn't fake. The moves were performed good enough to ask for feedback. I see worse videos in this forum that do get proper feedback. And he didn't do the Hurricane Change incorrectly, his goal is just to recreate Mystery Mark's Erdnase Change using the Hurricane. Why is it so difficult to understand that? And that's all I have to say. This is not so much in defence of Fin and Mark as its just stating the truth and the ignorance of some people here. If offense taken, you know who you are. |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
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On 2011-06-12 04:57, Polo wrote: Oy, Polo. You should take your one post, shut up and go home. An earlier version of Force Impossible was disproven on MVD by a reputable card magician. You can hunt him down if you like. Smooth 360 is nonsense designed specifically to hype up his other products. There's a reason it's "no longer for sale". His Ultimate Royal Casino Extreme product was exposed as fraudulent. He's put up videos involving lapping and said "I never lapped anything." He's put up videos with stooges and said it's a legitimate force. He's put up videos with video editing and included multiple angles to take in suckers who don't know better. The one colour-change that Fin is championing right now? The one where his hand comes out within inches of the webcam lens? It's so !@#$%^!ed angle-sensitive you better hope you're not performing for anybody other than other Youtube mouth-breathing losers. You want to defend that nonsense, that's your business. Go on the record vouching for this snake oil salesman if you like, lay down with that dog, I don't care. But keep my name out of it.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Polo New user 6 Posts |
I am not going anywhere, definitely not when someone feels the need to scream at me like a child not getting his candy.
If you always talk that mature I can see why Magic Video Depot is so inactive now and why Mark was bashed on. You even claim that video authors could remove their videos by themselve on Magic Video Depot but at the time I see Mark was active there that is not true at all. I don't know about nowadays but this was years ago which makes you a liar. And I see that a good amount of videos Mark had up on there are still on YouTube. His Smooth change looks exactly like that on webcam from the same angles, done at normal speed and even when performed in slowmo. And there are videos in which I see he doesn't use his lap to lap with something similar to a presto pad so if he says he didn't lap, I believe he really didn't. It's like advertisements for the presto pad saying "No more lapping". No one disagrees. I don't know much as for the Ultimate Royal Casino Control Extreme but I see thing you linked is only about the download and not the official DarkSleightZ product released shortly afterwards, also mentioned in there. The only thing it says in the thread is that there is something missing in the download. And the Bertram Colour Change or Erdnase Change whichever you talk about has better angles than the actual Bertram Color Change which I also perform. it is only a little harder. And Mark's MTL Control is heavily discussed on and called fake on too, also by you. Read Bietfriek's posts that you ignored in the thread I linked to. YOu even call Mark an idiot for confusing you with the Andrew on Magic Video Depot but in this thread you even put "In case it matters, the "Andrew" referred to there is not me, but rather the owner of the site." yourself. Real mature. /sarcasm Just some things that show you don't know what you talk about. If I would look for more, I am sure I can take everything down you claimed in relation to Mark. So are you going to keep topping your immaturity? It only says something about yourself. |
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Slide Special user 533 Posts |
I'm always suspicious when people come on their first post is to defend or to promote a product. Mark's got posts like this all over the place. Fin came on the forum and his first posts where about Mark, and there is a post on Genii also praising Mark and again the poster only had one post. This is the oldest social media marketing dodge in the world.
Fin, you went to a lot of work (and possible exposure) for nothing. I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said it could be done as smoothly as presented and asked you to perform in front of an audience SPECIFICALLY because of the the angle problems that Andrew points out. Clearly, you and Polo and the poster on Genii are associated with each other if not the same person. |
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Polo New user 6 Posts |
Stop accusing people without proof. First of all, I don't know Fin or anyone with Genii and technology would provide proof for that. I recently hooked up with Mark and the DarkSleightZ forums and I heard there was a buzz on this forum about his product. That's why I registered. And since I know of this product I can vouch that it isn't video editing. Not just the Phantom but every other product.
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Justin W Special user Lawrence, KS 929 Posts |
I don't want to get into this discussion, but let me just say that this
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On 2011-06-12 06:52, Polo wrote: is not true, and anyone familiar with both the Bertram Change and Mark's would know that. The Bertram Change uses a Tenkai palm, which for all things considered is quite a covered palm. Especially compared to the mechanics of Mark's change. Mark's change has one-on-one/webcam angles, whereas the original Bertram Change has much wider angles. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Those who have real product and real work that serves then when they perform gain a reputation from those performances and from there into the magic market.
So if all you see is a video on YouTube and an obviously Photoshopped product picture to go with a teaser/promo - think of it as advertising and wait for feedback from those who do paid shows as to how well the item serves them when the show/money/reputation is on the line in realtime. hint: look at the heart in the "little man" advertisement - and then at the cute red hat. Nuff said. BTW, you can get pretty close to what's in that video using black art methods. Though my work to date does not leave the handling that "in your face" since real people will be so close as to instinctively reach for things which might still be too close for comfort. So while waiting for the product release - go play with a Platt Blackout or similar for cards (folding in half or quarters is okay) and see where that takes you.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Slide Special user 533 Posts |
"Stop accusing people without proof. "
You are right. I should have said, "I wouldn't be surprised if..." |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
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On 2011-06-12 06:52, Polo wrote: This is completely untrue, and Mark was the worst abuser of that feature. You're either ignorant here or deliberately lying. Anonymous people showing up out of the blue to praise Mark's stuff was a tactic he relished on MVD all the time as well, so I'm done with you, fringe. To everybody else reading this thread, you want to watch, believe and/or buy his stuff, go ahead. In the spirit of "Magicians Helping Magicians" I've offered what warnings I can.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Polo New user 6 Posts |
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Justin W wrote: I wonder if you are familiar with the Bertram shadow change yourself now. It definitely has better angles than the TeBe change. Posted: Jun 12, 2011 3:26pm ------------------------------------ Quote:
Andrew Musgrave wrote: Liar. The administrators were the only ones to delete the videos and I experienced that myself. And second, the videos were for file download so deleting them wouldn't actually delete them from people their computers. I was on the website too. I sure don't recall seeing you or your videos there but it may explain why your statements are false. When facts come in, you run away. Go ahead because you really don't do good to the art by putting a "Weak ice" sign next to a solid frozen lake with 15 inches of ice. Sorry for double posting, editing was disabled. |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
In case there's any question about the ability of users to delete their videos on MVD...
Here is a thread that explains how to get a video deleted. http://liveweb.archive.org/http://www.ma......9c1b3339 It was a simple process. Ask an admin to do it, and they do it. You'll notice that in that specific thread, there's a comment made by Mystery Mark. So this answers the question about whether or not he was capable of getting his videos deleted when he was a member. But... did he actually take advantage of that feature? http://web.archive.org/web/2006070111321......s=recent On the above page, if you scroll down, you'll notice that there's a video called "Hallucination" put up by Mystery Mark. http://web.archive.org/web/2006022511141......s=recent On the above page, if you scroll down, you'll notice that there's a video called "Packet Sessions 4". According to the description, there were three other parts. http://web.archive.org/web/2006040606434......s=recent On the above page, if you scroll down, you'll notice that there are two videos called "Spoon Extreme" and "Spoon Extreme Straightening". http://web.archive.org/web/2006041316292......s=recent On the above page, if you scroll down, you'll notice that there's a video called "Force Impossible (Live 2)", and if you read the description, you'll see that the 2 was meant to signify that it was the second live version he'd uploaded. The year for these pages is 2006. Now, on these two pages, archived from 2007, are listings of Mystery Mark's videos... http://web.archive.org/web/2007022419112......9c1b3339 http://web.archive.org/web/2007052714362......57283b95 There is no mention of a video for "Hallucination", "Packet Sessions 4" (or any of the "Packet Sessions" videos), "Spoon Extreme" or "Spoon Extreme Straightening", or "Force Impossible (Live 2)" (or any other Force Impossible video for that matter, unsurprising because it had already been soundly trounced by the membership there as fraudulent). So, not only were users able to delete videos that they didn't want up there, here are multiple instances of Mark actually doing it. And with that, NOW I'm done with you, Polo. You should have shut up and taken a hike when you had the chance. Edit: "Liar. The administrators were the only ones to delete the videos and I experienced that myself." Oh, so this is the game you're playing? I said that Mark deleted videos when they weren't well-received or exposed as fraudulent. Whether he had to press a button to get the web server to do it, or if he had to send a personal message to the admins, it makes no real difference. And, in getting them deleted, the discussions pointing out the flaws would get deleted as well. But you knew that.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Polo New user 6 Posts |
Basically you say that I was right by saying you couldn't delete a video yourself. Thanks.
I don't remember many of Mark's old videos but I do remember the Invisible Palms, Force Impossible, The Flash and spoon bending and a Superman Levitation or something like that that I don't see listed anywhere. He was being bashed on at every video, even the unoriginal tricks like that levitation that he sure didn't fake or expose, not that he faked anything as he gave away a bit of The Flash once. If that's the way of doing research you think is correct, I can't and won't agree with any. When I'm unsatisfied with a video whether too many people hate it or I don't like it myself, I delete it too. It's a fact that after it was deleted on Magic Video Depot back then it would still be on many people their systems so the deleting the videos wouldn't do much at all. Edit: You were the one to say that what I said wasn't right and now you blame it on me and say I'm playing a game? Wow. Of course it matters if one can delete a video himself or if he relies on another person. |
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Justin W Special user Lawrence, KS 929 Posts |
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On 2011-06-12 14:51, Polo wrote: I am. The TeBe angles are the same as Tenkai angles--from the far right to about 45 degrees to the left. The Shadow change, not so much. Anyone who is also familiar with both would say the same thing. But I'm not entirely sure why the TeBe was brought up in the first place, as it's completely unrelated to both Mark's change and the discussion at hand. |
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MarkHilkemeijer New user 18 Posts |
I really didn't want to post in here myself but I think something needs to be set straight. Also, I'm getting a little tired of the huge amount of emails and YouTube and forum PMs I'm getting regarding this thread.
All I can say is that if you feel the need to leave statements about me, my company and/or our magic, be sure you either have a solid ground for those statements or have talked to me (or us) personally. I think that shouldn't be too difficult, is it really? Those who think it's best to do differently cannot be taken serious, no matter how hard they would try and no matter how many posts they have on here. They can merely brainwash others into thinking differently, but I hope my average spectators and video viewers to be slightly smarter than that so in case he or she is not, I couldn't care less. If you aren't open for what I said in this paragraph, there is nothing that can or will help you. Easy as that. Quote:
On 2011-06-12 17:11, Justin W wrote: It seems like he just used the classic 'Bertram Color Change' to compare to the angles of my 'Bertram Shadow Change'. Unfortunately, I will have to say that Polo is correct by saying the angles of the 'Bertram Shadow Change' are better than those of the classic 'Bertram Change'. It's slightly better on the horizontal angles you mentioned and it's better on the vertical angles as well. The problem here might be the concept of an exposure video rather than a tutorial video. In a tutorial I would've been going into full detail on the angles which would've cleared up they are indeed better than the ones of a 'Tenkai'. You now might not know how to cover it up properly and easily, although the cover provided in the performance and exposure videos should actually do the job, the latter one more than the first one though. Especially if you would tweak the covering action to your performance situations, it shouldn't be a problem to perform the change at all. -Mark |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
I've read the entire thread and here are my conclusions. I will stand by each of these:
1) I would trust the analysis and references of Andrew Musgrave over anyone else in his thread in regards to this matter. As far as what happens on the internet in magic, he's the guy in the know. I dare say that in 20 years he'll be writing a history of how the internet has affected magic. 2) Fin, Polo and Mark do not have the discernment necessary to know what works and what does not in terms of using sleights in performance. 3) Many (though probably not all) of Marks videos are the product of digital manipulation. In addition to the evidence aleady offered, I find it hard to believe that if they were not, he'd be overwhelmed with Lecture and Convention gigs. In fact, I wonder why he has not won FISM yet... or even competed? 4) Contrary to what Polo says, Fin was doing the Hurricane Change. Doing a move slowly does not change the identity of the move. To think so (as Fin and Polo seem to think) again demonstrates a lack of discernment. Additionally, Fin was doing the move incorrectly. 5) Polo's parents did not teach him any manners. He throws tantrums, calls names and generally has no social skills whatsoever. He's even worse than me. Addtionally, Polo cannot form a cogent argument of any kind. Having said all of that, I believe that this thread is calling great attention to the cause of this Unholy Trinity (you know-- three things that are actually one?). Therefore I will no longer post to a thread that is almost certainly a marketing device. Don't get me wrong-- I'm not against marketing. I'm against deceptive advertising. SEY P.S. I now regret even showing up again on the Café.... |
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MarkHilkemeijer New user 18 Posts |
As mentioned in my previous post, you cannot be taken serious. I'm especially sorry that you, Steven, made all respect I once had for you disappear instantly.
If it's too difficult to hook up with me personally and to have a good, mature magic chat, it's definitely too difficult to figure out any of the tricks I perform and will keep performing. Funny enough they all use only slightly revamped classic sleights, principles and props, if revamped at all. Welcome to the modern world of magic, in which classic magicians fool themselves worse than the magician who they think is fooling them. Thank you for the wonderful compliments. |
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