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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2011-06-16 02:54, Blake Alexander wrote: I fully understand your point as I shared it for years. Maybe that's why I felt the same way. I started performing at 8 and by the time I was 11, I was a professional actor in the Actor's Equity Asssociation. I acted, sang and danced for years including dancing professionally with the Dallas Met Ballet and was offered a scholarship to the American Ballet Theater. I did over 2000 shows in one year while I was in Texas. I didn't do all of those shows because I knew what I was doing. I just didn't really have any competition at the time. By the time I moved to Hollywood at 20, I had done thousands of shows around the country and thought I really had it all down. Boy, did I learn a lot after that! I suddenly was in a market with a LOT of people who were all better than me and what experience I had now didn't really count for much in Hollywood. The techniques I had used in the past had worked fine as well but suddenly I had to start from scratch and develop real world techniques that applied in a concentrated market with a saturation of great talent. When I was starting out here there WAS no David Copperfield or anyone else combining Magic, Theater, Singing and Dancing. Yes, I did sell myself that way and I did learn to market myself differently so this is nothing new to me. It's true that there aren't many people that have worked professionally in all of these areas as we have. That might have been the reason David & I first became friends. We're the same age and met when we were 21. David, Don Wayne, Jonathan Neal and I went out every Monday for dinner at Johnny's Steak House on Hollywood Blvd. across from Hollywood Magic for years. After Dinner we would go up to the Castle to see the shows so we have a long and interesting history. My point about trying to sell quality is that many in the audience just aren't that good of a judge of it. One day in Hollywood Magic, Earl Nelson (one of the great close up men anywhere!) decided to show someone that walked in off the street a new card effect he had been working on. This was really rare so we all watched his flawless execution of an effect that would have baffled most magicians in the world. After the most beautiful handling of an effect we had ever seen, the lady watching it said, "Yes, my son does that trick where you find the card". Be great, be unique and find your own voice! Good luck in this journey of a lifetime.
Ray Pierce
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Blake Alexander New user Chicago 65 Posts |
Thank you for that! is there anything else you can recommend me doing? I mean as far back as I can remember I've always wanted to be a gangster... I mean famous, lol. I pray night after night that one day I will be up there on the big screen or headlining a theater in Vegas or singing at Madison Square Garden. It is my dream and one day I plan to live it. As for now, I take one step at a time to climb that ladder to fortune and fame so if you have anything else to say please do so I can use it to my advantage.
Another thing to think about ray and possibly help me further on this is, I'm not performing for a bunch of other magicians to impress them I'm performing for the public for what they want to see and what is in their best interest and draws their attention. Correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts |
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On 2011-06-16 01:11, Payne wrote: Because these are weak illusions. He doesn't have to worry about people hiring him as he stated that McDonalds is his sponsor. Believe me he will get hired. He has the look, the energy, and the drive to make it in magic. If he were to perform a subtrunk in his own style he will impress. I suggest he build a show, perform it well and add that one thing each year to spice it up. That is how the big boys do it, right? Patrick |
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hugmagic Inner circle 7655 Posts |
I disagree these are weak illusions. They have to be presented in the proper way. Did you ever see Landis Smith do the Vampira? It was unreal. It looked like it was CG. Costume trunk in Virgil's or Blackstone's hands was a work of art. Doll house, while it may bore most magicians to tears, is a great layman illusion especially if you work with a storyline.
I commend you for you enthusiasm. Keep that part always going but try to add in the reality that Ray has spoken of to make this work. One thing I might add is work on the in one pieces. That is what is unique and you, That is the glue that holds the "show" together. Look at what the old masters did. How did they make the transitions from one illusion to another. It is those pieces that make or break a show, not just the huge illusions. Good luck and keep plugging away. Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com email-hugmagic@raex.com Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's. |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2011-06-16 08:46, Magic Patrick wrote: No such thing as a "weak" illusion. Just waek and uncreative presentations for them. Quote:
He doesn't have to worry about people hiring him as he stated that McDonalds is his sponsor. Until another young kid doing the exact same illusions comes in and undercuts him. Quote:
Believe me he will get hired. He has the look, the energy, and the drive to make it in magic. If he were to perform a subtrunk in his own style he will impress. I suggest he build a show, perform it well and add that one thing each year to spice it up. That is how the big boys do it, right? I'm sure he'll get hired and go far. He has the skill and the drive. I'm just trying point out that there's a lot more magic out there than the Top 40 everyone else is doing and that no one ever got to the big time by doing other peoples stuff.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Wow... lots of posts!! Always fun
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On 2011-06-16 02:39, Blake Alexander wrote: I know and understand. My point is that what I thought was "logical" at 20 changed over the years. It's like saying "I used all the "good" ideas". By adding the qualifier "logical" into the statement, it filters your selection of the advice and wisdom. If you view a statement as "not logical" it allows you to discount it without question even if it might be helpful. This isn't to suggest for a second that you have done that with good ideas but it does highlight a selective filter that could possibly change over years as you gain more experience, that's all! Quote:
On 2011-06-16 02:44, w_s_anderson wrote: lol... S&R might not have started out with that hook! It was actually when Roy brought the black panther into the act. but it did make me laugh! You ARE a prime example of my point though. You have a great hook that gets you the job, then talent and personality that KEEPS you working. Quote:
On 2011-06-16 02:57, Blake Alexander wrote: Someone once told me "It's not who YOU know, it's who knows YOU!" This means that it's not about just meeting someone, it's about relationships you forge. I can say that I "know" someone famous I met at a party once, but the key is... if someone came up to them a few months later and mentioned my name, what would they say? If they would say, "Oh, yeah, we worked on a show together in LA, how is he doing anyway?? That reminds me to call him about an idea, tell him I said Hi!" it means you have forged a relationship with that person which means something tangible. On the other hand, if they say, "Who???", that means you know them but they don't know you! Quote:
On 2011-06-16 03:47, Blake Alexander wrote: Then create a magic segment where you get to play a gangster! I wanted to be a pirate (and this was about 20 years ago before pirates were everywhere!) so I created the pirate scene around a cargo net illusion in my show with 30 foot sails, ships wheel and everything else including sword fights, guns blazing and an entire story about me rescuing a girl from the pirate king and saving the world. Keep in mind this was one scene, not a character I used for an entire act. People might like a character but they relate to a personality. I created scenes of many different characters but always starting the show with them getting to know me as the story teller and guide through these many different worlds. Quote:
On 2011-06-16 03:50, Blake Alexander wrote: This is the key to everything. If you want to be successful, let your market dictate your work! If you want to be an artist, that's a different motivator. In that case, create your art, don't let anyone else tell you what to do, follow your dreams. You might not ever make any money from it and never become well known but if that makes you happy and you are prepared to suffer for it, then that is your quest and follow it. lol... just don't gripe about it when no one pays any attention! It's your art and that's all that should matter. On the other and if you care about your audience (which I do more than anything in the world), then your goal is to take them on a journey they will never forget. Your goal isn't to show them how cool you are and impress them with your great toys, it is to give them the joy of wonder and amazement which are some of the richest emotions we can share. It is to entertain them and make them glad they came to see you. I hate to keep going back to Maskelyn and Devant but the basic rules in "Our Magic" are still golden, one of which is: "Always endeavor to form an accurate conception of the point of view most likely to be adopted by a disinterested spectator." If you can entertain that person, you will do well. That is the cast majority of your audience. It's in 3 groups. There are the top tier which are going to be entertained no matter what. They're already fine. There is the bottom group which will not be entertained no matter what you do... then there are the ones who are ready to like you if you do things right and hook them into your world. Aim for these guys! Make it your goal to figure the out and see what it takes to get them on board. Video tape every show, then close your eyes and listen to it. Listen to the reactions... when they react and the relative scale of each reaction. Let that be your yardstick on your showmanship ability with an audience. Quote:
On 2011-06-16 10:20, hugmagic wrote: Wow, spoken by a master! Some illusions are definitely easier as they have everything built in. You can just do them and get a reaction with no real showmanship. Many time that is why they become "classics" because they work themselves. When we were at Hollywood Magic, we would work out routines for the effects that no one ever did because the theory was, if it turned out good, it would be from our talent and thinking, not just an inherent benefit of the stock routine. Don't get me wrong, some tricks just suck and aren't worth the time except as a pure exercise. It's easy to take an effect you've already seen done well and repeat it. There isn't as much personal growth in that. Our personal creativity can be summed up with this simple question. How many effects do we end up with in our own shows because we saw someone else do it well? I'm not opposed to classic and non original effects! I use many in my show but not because I saw them done, but because I saw the inherent value and worked out something new that allowed me to build on my own work, not just a routine I saw and copied. Quote:
On 2011-06-16 10:20, hugmagic wrote: Boy, this is a HUGE deal! For years, many middle range illusionists used the in one piece just as a time filler to change sets or illusions. It was... Big Trick, in one filler, Big Trick, In one filler... The old masters, Blackstone, Dante, used these as key elements in the show to reach out and establish a relationship with the audience but this was lost for many years. David was one of the first people in the public limelight in many years to start realizing the value of these pieces to establish personality and connect with the audience. His goal was to make the in one pieces as strong and valuable as the illusions. That has been a big secret in his show. Quote:
On 2011-06-16 10:40, Payne wrote: Couldn't agree more! Quote:
On 2011-06-16 10:40, Payne wrote: Wow... great point. Even if the new guy doesn't have the talent or ability, it will happen. Sadly then, once you've lost the client, it is twice as hard to get them back. There will always be someone that comes along, that is younger, better, with more props and more money. Be ready for it! Forge relationships and then be of service to the client. My personal philosophy is: We will all be successful to the degree we are able to help others fulfill their dreams and achieve their goals. Quote:
On 2011-06-16 10:40, Payne wrote: Agreed. I guess it just depends on your ultimate goals and how far up the ladder you want to get. Some people are happy working locally so there isn't as much pressure to do things to "hit the big time". It's all about your goals!
Ray Pierce
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Blake Alexander New user Chicago 65 Posts |
My personal philosophy is: We will all be successful to the degree we are able to help others fulfill their dreams and achieve their goals.
And that you all have done. Thank you once again. Everything said is truely taken to heart and greatly appreciated. Now can I get a recommendation of illusions that can be added in throughout the year? Thanks! |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2011-06-16 01:46, w_s_anderson wrote: That's strange cause all the close up "junkies" I know think illusionists are failed close up guys who can't connect to an intimate audience on a one on one level or simply didn't have the mental and physical dexterity required to perform in diverse real world environments that present multiple challenges never found on a safe and cushy stage.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2011-06-16 17:06, Payne wrote: Lol... I'm known as an illusionist but I would be likely to agree with you in general! Close up is much more accessible to people so it has a higher percentage of applicability. It is much more easy to get into card magic than illusions so there just aren't as many close up guys who have tried illusions and then gone back to close up. It is true that I've seen a lot of box pushers who don't have the skill to do what I euphemistically call "real magic" which isn't necessarily close up but at least sleight of hand technique with un gimmicked props. On the other hand, I have seen close up guys that do well in front of 30 people, then go on stage and die as they don't have the charisma, dynamics, stage presence and showmanship to carry a 2000 seat venue. I firmly believe that you need skills in all areas to be a considered a good journeyman magician. I don't mean you have to do illusions but you should have the dynamics to carry a large show and the subtlety and nuance to do something amazing for one just person, but that's just me.
Ray Pierce
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
I believe it was Max Maven who said that one of the hardest disciplines in magic was illusions. Simply because you had to convince the audience that it was the magician that was doing the magic, not the box or assistant.
I agree 100% on your observation of close up magicians. I've seen far too many whose personalities don't make it beyond the edge of the table. They're terrific at entertaining a small assembly. But they lack the necessary skill set to push their persona beyond the confines of their performance space. Unfortunately it's easier for a stand up or stage worker to work for a handful of people than it is for someone whose only venue is close up to perform effectively for a audience in a large theater.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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MagicMichealMan Veteran user Vancouver Island, British Columbia 349 Posts |
Honestly, I've always thought Payne would be the worlds greatest illusionist, he'd never do something off the rack and would probably be the most entertaining magic show in a long time.
I commented on the thread about this guy a few years ago, I never got why people supported him because he was a "kid". To Copy is to copy, it's stealing. I'm younger than the kid, and I can't say I've never done someone else's routine before. But now I don't do anything that strickly belongs to someone else and haven't since I was 12. I get that's what he's trying to do, be himself. But why help someone who was before stealing material? They teach us in kindergarten that stealing is wrong. For some advice, if I could re-do my illusion business, I would have never bought an illusion that there was multiple of out there. Although original effects do cost a bundle more, they would be yours, and yours only. And in the long run would be totally worth it. I don't really get the feeling that cost is an issue to you judging by your illusion shopping list. If I were you, get some original illusions and make them great, instead of buying a bunch of marketed illusions that will last 3 minutes on stage. |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2011-06-16 18:06, MagicMichealMan wrote: Probably true. I'd most likely do to the classic illusions what I did to the old Coin in Bottle trick. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VCUQ3wOBog for those who haven't seen it I've actually got a couple of Sub Trunk varients I'd like to try. An interesting take on Origami (done with patter as a faux trick explination). As well as a version of Ring Flite that elevates it to illusion status as it uses a full size car. Sadly though these will never see the light of day as it simply isn't worth the time and trouble to put the presentations together. Not to mention the expense. Though if Kramien has his Magic Jamboree next year I might talk the wife into doing one of the Sub Trunk routines. We'd bill ourselves as the PayneDragons.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2011-06-16 17:40, Payne wrote: Yep, Max is a smart one alright and you've made a great point! I should abridge that quote slightly and say that illusions are one of the hardest disciplines to do "well". We all have seen the lowest end guys that just buy a prop, point and clap. The key as always is to do what I call "Dominating the prop" which is exactly what Max described and making them remember you, not the box. That's the difference in a strong illusionist and the others I call "furniture salesmen". At the edge of every performance area is a set of scales. In order to succeed, you have to keep the scales tipped in your favor. If you're showing an effect to a friend, you will be ok by virtue of the fact that you know the effect and he doesn't. If you do the same effect in front of 30 people, you have to be a stronger performer to support that weight. If you work in front of more people, the weight you have to support grows... 1000, 5,000, 10,000, etc. and you need the showmanship and charisma to support, control and guide that group on the journey. Television is different as it is a medium of intimacy. It's like doing an effect for one person or a small group in their living room. Magic skills are one thing, performance skills are another, technically unrelated but equally vital for success.
Ray Pierce
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Aaron Smith Magic Inner circle Portland, OR 1447 Posts |
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On 2011-06-16 15:00, Ray Pierce wrote: This is the absolute best advice I have ever heard on this forum. Bravo Ray. |
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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts |
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That's strange cause all the close up "junkies" I know think illusionists are failed close up guys who can't connect to an intimate audience on a one on one level or simply didn't have the mental and physical dexterity required to perform in diverse real world environments that present multiple challenges never found on a safe and cushy stage. I started out as a close up junkie. When I was stationed at Fort Lewis I had the fortunate opportunity of spending 3 years learning from one of the best close up magician's out there, Steve Dobson. I can honestly say that performing for the smaller audiences doesn't take nearly as much as performing for the larger ones. It is easy to captivate a small audience. If someone can't connect one on one with anyone how did they ever get into magic. Furthermore, unless the illusionist is a trust fund baby they could never come from being a failed close up guy. That is where 99% of us all start. If you don't make it as a close up guy, how on earth are you going to be able to afford to jump into the illusion market. Luckily I sit on both sides of the coin as all of my performances are pretty evenly split between Close up, Parlor, and Illusion. Just about every illusionist I have ever known can hold their own with a smaller audience. As far as the dexterity and skills to be a close up guy....a charismatic performer with a tt, set of sponge balls, and a good ambitious card routine will destroy the worlds greatest knuckle buster who doesn't have what it takes to hold someones attention. The unfortunate thing with the illusion world, is that so many people think they can pull it off and they really just suck. That is why we get such a bad rap. It's like the 99% of lawyers who ruin it for the rest of them. ;-) I do believe that the ratio of horrible illusionists to good illusionists is worse than bad close up performers to good close up performers. Quote:
On 2011-06-16 18:06, MagicMichealMan wrote: You actually are contradicting yourself there Michael. You admit to stealing someone else's routine before in that top sentence. Was that before or after you were in kindergarten and learned that stealing was wrong? ;-) Of course you say that you don't anymore which is great, but I remember watching you perform only year ago and you did Kevin James Floating Rose routine almost move for move as him. Before I knew any better, I had a knock off in my inventory as well. I wouldn't want to be chastised for the rest of my life because of it. |
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Blake Alexander New user Chicago 65 Posts |
"I don't think there is going to be a change. Practice makes perfect. If you don't know what you are doing wrong, and keep doing it, that is what you will be doing every time."-Matthew W. From an old post "Copperfield Rip Off" just thought I'd throw this in there to just give a small idea of one person I proved wrong lol
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crochow Regular user Youngstown, Ohio 129 Posts |
People would much rather have the REAL Mona Lisa, and NOT a cheap copy.
Magically,
Chris Rochow |
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MagicMichealMan Veteran user Vancouver Island, British Columbia 349 Posts |
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On 2011-06-17 01:12, w_s_anderson wrote: If you think I did kevins rose move for move your saddly mistaken. I never did the animated crumpled up ball, never used an audience volunteer and completely different music. I'm shocked you would even say that as I strived to not do any of his handling during that routine. What I was getting at is, everyone steals or has stolen. But I have never herd of anyone steal and entire show! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. One mistake can be forgiven, but what he did, is just wrong. Making money and working a show with not a single piece of original material. If I remember correctly, when you performed it was prop after prop, I thought I was watching the dealer demos. But your snow storm was where I realized it was a performance. That was a piece of art. |
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
Blake,
You haven't proven me wrong. I have yet to see any new videos of you. Besides, that wasn't about you ripping off Copperfield. That was about the execution of your effects. I haven't seen you on Americas Got Talent, and I haven't seen you as a special guest on Ellen. If you were on them, there would have been a topic about it here on the Café, along with a video. You kind of need proof to prove someone wrong.
-Matt
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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts |
LOL....then you must remember the show as poorly as I do.....;-)Deal Demo's? I did a GRAND total of 3 illusions with each having a specific and original reason, plot, and story line attached to it. Hardly a dealer demo if you ask anyone.
The only issue I have here is all the contradictions that are coming to light, i.e. he gets razzed for not doing original illusions, yet that same person states that if they did illusions they would only do the classics (hardly original). It's ok to steal once or twice, but anymore than that and you are banished for life. In no way do I condone the behavior of stealing people's material, but I am always going to support someone who tries to do the right thing. If we don't then what would keep that person from returning to the same behavior. Blake said he has cleaned up his act (I suggested he post some video's to clear the air on that). He came to the Café, after being the subject of a beat down in one of the longest threads in the Grand Illusion section. And he has asked for help. Given that he is, or is at least trying to do his own thing and not other peoples material I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. This is supposed to be Magicians helping Magicians right. I know that if I had been shunned from this place as a result of my having owned a knock off prop at one point in time, I would never have acheived the success that I currently have. I have been given great advice from this webforum on threads and via PM's in regards to my tour in Canada, fixing broken props, performance techniques, and the staging my show. I mean no offense to anyone, I just tend to try and help out the underdogs in life. Given his past, I'd say that Blake is a pretty big underdog on this forum right now. As far as the article about him on AGT. I know there was a magician from the midwest who made it through the first few rounds and on to Vegas. None of his acts ever made it to television. The kid who pulled the string from his stomach also performed in vegas (though he exposed the trick badly) and they didn't air that as well. If you were on the show, how far did you get Blake? |
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