After copying David Stone's "Window" (they sued him) now Jean Pierre Vallarino copies my "Melting Point(r)" effect and idea.
I don't know what to expect from magic, since the "Idols" or "Great Magicians" fall to these instances to make a penny.

In 2006 (just for the record) I created the coin thru glass table effect, no sleeves. Then, the chinese copies, the "Descent" from our
friend Kevin Parker, etc... even the masked magician explaining the basics on TV.

But when you see a fism winner do this things... even going backwards by using discarded methods.... you simply loose all
faith about ethic in magic.-

the original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_2JLmdV_OI

Vallarino's "creation" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFsbISz36e0

I want to read your opinion... thanks..

Not to disagree with you as I don't know your points, they may or may not be true.

But you did NOT invent coin though the glass table.

It has been around for quite a while, in various forms, some using a miniutre glass table atop a normal table, some using a glass toped table, some using a pane of glass. You may have created a method for it doing the effect, but you did not create the effect.

Tony

I do remember seeing the same effect at the Magic Castle about 10 years ago where a magician did his act then uncovered the table to reveal it was glass and do the coins through table on the glass top. I won't go into details but I believe he appeared to be married as well.

That avatar picture looks a lot like a photo on the cover of a little book of closeup tricks from England.
Sadly, that trick is not in the book in question.

Lol, of course I did not invent the "effect". Nor David Stone invented the "effect" of a
card thru window. (sorry about my bad phrasing before).

What I meant, the METHOD and the IDEA is almost the same. That brings to ethical questions
about variations on commercial tricks. Of course he can sell a variation of "Window" and
"Melting Point". But HOW CLOSE HE IS to the original effects is the question.

Now what do you have to say?

Vallarino's handling looks different, it looks cleaner. He was able to show his hand empty immediately after the penetration. You don't do that with your version.

Maybe that's a small detail, but given the side-by-side comparison, I like Vallarino's version better. Do you own his version? Does he credit you or give a history of the method?

Without entering into a debate, I assure you he is going through discarded methods of Melting Point. "Inmediately" is a different perception for you (a magician) and the spectators. When the coin passes in my trick, that hand goes "inmediately" below the glass, where it's shown empty, not *blatantly* and for NO REASON like in the JP video, but by showing the coin that has just passed thru (and that coin, incidentally, also proves that your ring is NOT a magnet). These are all subtle nuances that can't be perceived by the amateur magician of course. No offense here.

You don't need to over-prove things by showing the hand empty in the first place, because if the effect is correctly performed, the nature of the transparent glass leaves no suspicion of using 2 coins.

Now in the video of Youtube, his jacket sleeve is exagerately waved over the top coin. Elegance is thrown off the window.

He has published another video in his facebook (wich he kepts private for now) where he realizes that the trick is better without sleeves (in my video I'm with shirt sleeves, but for other reasons), and
"creates" another variation, one discarded by me since you have to carry/sell the glass or plastic rectangle with a *black frame* around it.

I have to admit, it looks good, regardless of it's practicality. Concerning the credits or history of the methods, he didn't give any.

I hope he sells the trick, if only to revive interest in mine

Oh, one more thing: My video is a live performance. Take a look at the original selling clip here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpbZo3WkJOk and see what I mean...

I guess it's just a matter of opinion regarding the handling because I like his better, although to be honest with you, I wouldn't perform either version of this effect.

If his is a discarded method of what you developed, then it's not your exact handling. I don't know if you published your discarded methods. If not, then you can't claim them after the fact. The gimmicks aren't yours. They are standard gaffs and both of you are marketing an effect based on those gaffs. Maybe I have the wrong method in mind and if so, then I have created another version!

That we have anyone publishing what Our Magic calls "Normal Art" - published means to perform standard effects made novel by the scripting or particular combination used in routine - is one of our problems in magic. Selling ones scripts that have proved themselves in performance over the term of a professional career or perhaps after vetting is not a problem. There are lots of versions of what we call "romeo and juliet" that have merit of their own.

I assure you that coins with magnetic appeal have been used for the coin through table trick for quite a while. What novelty do you claim as yours and as being copied/sold without permission?

For Domino: I am not claiming anything for the discarded methods. Just pointing out it's useless. Let each one decide of course. The gimmick in my effect is UNIQUE and ORIGINAL.

Jonathan: Coins and magnet have been used... but the exact method he's using, I believe it's my idea. If you do have proof that the same methods existed before, by all means let us know...
And I mean: Carrying bottom coin with a hidden magnet that is also used to pick up top coin. Easy to understand.

Mario, have a look at Bob Swadling's Double Deception routine. Yes I know that the method used for the vanish part of the trick is not the same (his starts with two on the table-hank-glass-card and goes to one) but isn't that awful close to the basics - even to using the attractive feature of the gaffs to set up the trick (check out the way he tells you to get the gaff "open")

Feel free to PM for details. I am open minded about finding out what's been done before and as you might recall from MUCH discussion of another trick I want people's work respected and permissions granted before stuff goes into other people's items. None of the "I use a ring and you use a * under your bandaid so they are different items sits well with me.

best wishes,

jon

Useless for who? For you perhaps, obviously not for him. So you have different methods and you state that your gaff is unique and original. He's not using it. You didn't create the effect, so what's the problem?

I believe the unique abd original coin thru glass table effect was created by James Lewis around 1990.

OMG - I hope that's an attempt at humor. Some of us have been pushing and dropping coins through glass counters and tabletops since the early 1970s and make no claim on any such "novelty" as the ancient trick called the "stack of pence" has been used to do just that very effect for at least a century.

Right you are, actually I first saw John Cornelius push a coin through a glass door back in...

Cairo, did you see him do the version where he holds a volunteer's hand and the coin passes through and they catch it? Also early mid 1970s from his lecture along with the trick where he took some balls out of a box and after they vanish, he stands up and then shows they are back in the box. Inventive guy. Classic methods well applied in both cases.

I think the disussion is entering a different path. Coins thru glass, coins thru table... old things. My handling and the way I move the hands to achieve the "effect", they are registered as a work of art (yes, we can do that in Spain). It's like a choreography. Of course there are no laws in magic that state you can't copy another performer movements. What we are discussing here is why a "top magician" emulates my handling. I've seen hundreds of videos in Youtube from amateur magicians doing it, with all the different "ideas" - that's ok. But Vallarino? If you want to astonish the world with your coin thru glass, why not create your original handling, like, say, Dean Dill?

I'll check Bob's routine, never read that one.

Mariano - we do have copyright of fixed forms here in the USA - and the folks in Dance have a form of notation to record that form. Also playwrights can protect works by way of a form of copyright specific to their artform.

Are you claiming a specific set of motions as your novel and distinct work that seeks protection?

It a good thing we have laws because the way I see ethics being used in magic is so unethical and de-moralizing that the only consistant and fair thing we have is the law.

Sorry MarianoG, you cannot register hand movements as a work of art in Spain. I just did a thourough search on it for you. If you want to register a choregraphed performance I can give you a bit of info on it, but if you had even attempted to register your hand movements as a work of art you would be more informed of what the registering is actually called.