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Mattia
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Dear Libis,
My cage is 2m x 2m x 1m. My doves have been living there since October. If I introduce inside the big cage another cage with another couple, will the first male know that there is another one in his cage? Will they "interact" also if they are in two different cages?

Posted: Jun 27, 2011 2:00pm
I also made a nest box as the one You showed me in March. The picture was taken before my doves started living there, so there wasn't the nest. Also with this, my couple hasn't layed any egg.
Libis
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Quote:
On 2011-06-27 13:56, mattia wrote:
Dear Libis,
My cage is 2m x 2m x 1m. My doves have been living there since october. If I introduce inside the big cage another cage with another couple, will the first male know that there is another one in his cage? Will they "interact" also if they are in two different cages?

Yeah, he'll know the other birds are in the other cage. It would be kind of a long shot adding another male to the same cage at this point. If you choose to add a couple of girls, just to be safe I would still put them in a smaller cage to introduce everyone slowly. They will then get used to their "neighbor" more gradually and without bloodshed in the initial meeting. No total guarantee they will get along and won't fight when you let the birds meet without bars in between, though. This is just the safest way I know to introduce new birds.

Don't forget to quarantine new birds before bringing them close to the big cage. At least 2 weeks so you know they won't bring in illness. Some people quarantine even longer--months even.
Quote:
On 2011-06-27 14:00, mattia wrote:
I also made a nest box as the one You showed me in March. The picture was taken before my doves started living there, so there wasn't the nest. Also with this, my couple hasn't layed any egg.

It's possible that your hen is infertile. It seems like that's a long time if she's cuddling with her mate and everything. I got one of my hens in December, she had never laid before (9 months old--I know that's a bit late) and she laid by March. (Her first set of eggs were so cute and mini. Smile )
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens." J.R.R. Tolkien
Dave Scribner
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Mattia, you cage is large enough to house two males without a problem. There is no need to put a smaller cage in the larger one. When I had 31 birds living in my basement, I had multiple males and they got along fine. They just need room to call their own.

Doves mate for life. In other words, if you put several females and one male in the cage, he would only mate with one of the females. As a strange turn of events, a mated female will fight with another female if she gets too close
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Libis
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Quote:
On 2011-06-27 18:37, Dave Scribner wrote:
Mattia, you cage is large enough to house two males without a problem. There is no need to put a smaller cage in the larger one. When I had 31 birds living in my basement, I had multiple males and they got along fine. They just need room to call their own.

Doves mate for life. In other words, if you put several females and one male in the cage, he would only mate with one of the females. As a strange turn of events, a mated female will fight with another female if she gets too close

You never needed a "howdy" cage for introductions? I've never been that lucky even in getting a male and female to pair up.

How would you get two males to get along while exercising loose in the house? My Edmund is ferocious about my entire room and the bathroom towards all of the other birds besides his mate. I try not to exercise the birds in other parts of the house because one of the cats is far too interested in them.

Doves are only as monogamous as humans. Cheating happens with some and not with others.
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens." J.R.R. Tolkien
Mattia
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Quote:
On 2011-06-27 18:37, Dave Scribner wrote:
Mattia, you cage is large enough to house two males without a problem. There is no need to put a smaller cage in the larger one. When I had 31 birds living in my basement, I had multiple males and they got along fine. They just need room to call their own.

So I can put them together without any risk, also if the first male has been living there for more time then the other and recognizes it as his territory? Is it better to pay attention to them at the beginning of their convivence?
Dave Scribner
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Libis, no I have never used a "Howdy" cage. It was never necessary. Mattia's cage is large enough to introduce new birds, whether male or female without a problem. The males will only fight if they get close to each other. Territory is more important if the doves are housed in small cages.
Quote:
Doves are only as monogamous as humans. Cheating happens with some and not with others.
Doves are monogamous. Once paired up, it is a very rare situation where the male would take on two mates. They mate for life and they are not like humans. That is why there have been multiple questions on the Café about a bird getting very lethargic after the death of a mate.


Mattia, you male dove has already established it's territory. It won't be the entire cage. A new male will find an area that will belong to him. If their paths cross in the cage, they will flap at each other to maintain that territory..
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Mattia
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Ok,so I will do as follows:
I will build another cage,smaller than the one I've already built. Then I'll buy the new couple(a male and a female). I'll start as Dave said:putting both couples in the same cage. I'll leave them alone for a bit and the day after I'll check if there's something wrong with the two males. If not,I'll check for a week,and if they get along well,I'll wait 3-4 month and I'll buy the third couple. If they flap or fight,I'll put the new couple inside the smaller cage and I'll slowly let them get used to each other. If it doesn't work,I'll separate them definitely.
Could it be a good way to proceed?
Fábio DeRose
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Don't leave them alone at first. Make sure to stay around and carefully look at the way they behave. I've had doves play nice but when I turned my back madness would take over.
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Libis
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Quote:
On 2011-06-28 06:30, Dave Scribner wrote:
Libis, no I have never used a "Howdy" cage. It was never necessary. Mattia's cage is large enough to introduce new birds, whether male or female without a problem. The males will only fight if they get close to each other. Territory is more important if the doves are housed in small cages.
Quote:
Doves are only as monogamous as humans. Cheating happens with some and not with others.
Doves are monogamous. Once paired up, it is a very rare situation where the male would take on two mates. They mate for life and they are not like humans. That is why there have been multiple questions on the Café about a bird getting very lethargic after the death of a mate.

Mattia, you male dove has already established it's territory. It won't be the entire cage. A new male will find an area that will belong to him. If their paths cross in the cage, they will flap at each other to maintain that territory..

As far as territorial issues--what would you do with a bird who has claimed an entire bedroom and bathroom? I would love to be able to let everyone out together. Is it possible that aggression is linked to a color gene? Since this super territorial cock is a blonde/fawn. I know in cocker spaniels there is a tendency for the blondes to be more aggressive than the black dogs--so this type of color gene and personality type link occurs elsewhere in animals that have been selectively bred for color.

I know that there are others out there who also have problems with this kind of territorial problem--but I haven't found information on a good solution for it. Here is another lady with the same problem that I found on the American Dove Assoc. member board:
Quote:
Introducing new birds to the "flock" Any tricks? The existing birds are being brutal and the new ones are scared out of their minds. If this keeps up, going to ask hubby to build a wing on the coop (LOL).
This is the reply from Dawn Wisniewski--a breeder I know and respect
Quote:
Yes Pattie...your flight is plenty big enough for the amount of birds you have. Doves are very territorial. Even if they have plenty of room...they will still bicker when in a colony over food, perches, mates, etc.

I've been having a really hard time finding actual advice on getting them to get along when there is a territorial issue though--all I can normally find is descriptions of the problem. Were all of your birds just really laid back? Or is there some better way to do introductions besides a cage next to a cage and gradual intros?

I know they mourn their mates, but that doesn't mean that they never cheat on them. I know breeders who have had all kinds of little dramas happen in their lofts. It happens the most if you replace the eggs a lot with fakes to control population. I do admit that it is reported less in ringnecks than in their relatives, though.

It actually makes for pretty interesting reading across the whole family of doves and pigeons.

Monogomy in vinaceous doves, ringneck doves, and their hybrids:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200......0033.htm

More on that same study:
http://www.nwo.nl/nwohome.nsf/pages/NWOA_7KDEPT_Eng

This one has a bit of info on a study that was done in which monogamous species of birds were genetically tested to see whether the pairs cheated--not entirely dove specific:
http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/0......ex.html/

Pigeons--this thread is an entertaining read. Oh, there's also one mourning dove if you read enough of the stories:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/has-any......217.html
Quote:
On 2011-06-28 08:19, mattia wrote:
Ok,so I will do as follows:
I will build another cage,smaller than the one I've already built. Then I'll buy the new couple(a male and a female). I'll start as Dave said:putting both couples in the same cage. I'll leave them alone for a bit and the day after I'll check if there's something wrong with the two males. If not,I'll check for a week,and if they get along well,I'll wait 3-4 month and I'll buy the third couple. If they flap or fight,I'll put the new couple inside the smaller cage and I'll slowly let them get used to each other. If it doesn't work,I'll separate them definitely.
Could it be a good way to proceed?

I think that sounds wise over all. Smile As has been stated already, though, keep an eye on them early on.
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens." J.R.R. Tolkien
Mattia
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My couple stays for a lot of time on the same perch. Sometimes they fly to others, but I think that this perch is their territory. Is it possible that another male will want the same territory or he will be smart and stay away?
Dave Scribner
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Mattia, you're making this much more difficult that necessary. You cage is plenty large enough for at least 3 or 4 pairs of doves and possibly more. You don't need an extra smaller cage. Put you new pairs directly into that cage but as Fabio mentioned, just keep an eye on them for a few days. Minor fighting will not be harmful. Your cage has plenty of room for them to fly around.

Libis:
Quote:
Introducing new birds to the "flock" Any tricks? The existing birds are being brutal and the new ones are scared out of their minds. If this keeps up, going to ask hubby to build a wing on the coop (LOL).
I can't comment as I haven't seen the entire article but she doesn't say how many birds she already has in her "flock" or how big her cage is. That could make a big difference.

Quote:
Yes Pattie...your flight is plenty big enough for the amount of birds you have. Doves are very territorial. Even if they have plenty of room...they will still bicker when in a colony over food, perches, mates, etc.


This will occur no matter how many doves you have or how big your cage is. When two or more males gather at the food bin or around the same perch, there will be some fighting.

As to your one dove dominating an entire room, that is a training issue on your part. If this bird is the only one that is that aggressive, you might try keeping him in the cage while you release the other birds. Release him by himself. Gradually introduce other birds into the room with him but not all of your birds at the same time.
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Libis
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Quote:
On 2011-06-28 19:53, Dave Scribner wrote:
As to your one dove dominating an entire room, that is a training issue on your part. If this bird is the only one that is that aggressive, you might try keeping him in the cage while you release the other birds. Release him by himself. Gradually introduce other birds into the room with him but not all of your birds at the same time.


Yeah, that is probably part of the issue--as he was my first dove. Before him I only knew how to work with hookbills and chickens. He lived with me as a single pet for a long time before I bought him a mate.

What's sad is, some of the birds that he is so aggressive towards are his own children--only 6 weeks old. He's been aggressive towards them since 3.5 weeks, and even though they don't beg any more he tries to attack.

He lost his home before mine due to aggression towards other birds as well. He would start fights and then end up losing them.
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens." J.R.R. Tolkien
Mattia
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Can I produce the last dove in my act via s. tossing? Is saying: could it be dangerous for a dove to stay in that position for 4-5 minutes?
Fábio DeRose
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Quote:
On 2011-07-01 06:38, mattia wrote:
Can I produce the last dove in my act via s. tossing? Is saying: could it be dangerous for a dove to stay in that position for 4-5 minutes?

Would be uncomfortable. Both for you and the bird.Mainly for you, actually because, you know, you don't have nearly as much freedom of movement than you would if...unloaded - if you catch my drift. As for the birds, it would be safe, but uncomfortable, and there wuld be a serious risk (If not an absolute chance) of the bird moving around a bit and not being properly ready to fly out.
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Mattia
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Thank You Fábio. I asked this because at the end of my act I produce an appearing cage from a silk and inside it there is a fake latex dove. Then I turn the fake dove into a real dove and the act ends. Have You got any ideas of how to make this change without using s. tossing?
Dave Scribner
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Mattia, if you were doing a body load, the very maximum time to hold it in the pocket would 15 minutes but that is pushing it. I would not recommend keeping a dove in your sleeve until the end of the act. There are ways to insure it stays there until needed but as Fabio said, it will be very uncomfortable for you and your movements throughout your act will be very restricted. With a little misdirection, you might be able to do the effect using an invisable harness and barehand production.
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Mattia
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Ok. So I will do it in another way.Maybe with invisible harness. Thanks!
Fábio DeRose
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Dave's suggestion should work like a charm. Think of Dan Serry's Mask to Dove: It absolutely blows people away - The effect is so strong and fast that the regular human being does not pay attention to some details that fellow magi sometimes overlook as being way too obvious.
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tropicalillusions
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Also Greg Frewins dove toss s.....ess. Check out his site for this great prop which is much like the S...e T..s, but waits in an area until needed. So many ways, Dave and Fab have some great ideas.
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