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gdw
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That's rather insulting to children fish. Also, it has nothing to do with teaching them it's "socially" unacceptable.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
magicfish
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So realizing that its futile to explain canadian supply side economics to my toddler is insulting to her? ......ya.......right.
magicfish
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After youve jumped all over that one, heres my response to your upcoming buffoonery. Children don't care weather their actions are socially acceptable, or embarrassing to you, or hurtful to others. Its not an insult, its nature.
Carrie Sue
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Okay, family story:

I witnessed an instance of spanking by a father whose son wanted to go outside.

"No, son. Stay in here for a while."

The son walked over to the doorway, looked back at his father, and his father repeated the word no.

The son stepped over the threshold.

Dad was out of his chair in a second, across the room in two seconds, snatched up his son and carried him to the couch. He bent his son over his knee, swatted him twice on the butt with his hand (not hard), and then set him down and said, "Now, you stay there for a while."

There was no anger, no harsh words, and virtually no pain to the child. This was not violence. It was swift and unmistakeable correction for willful defiance of a Dad's order.

The child stayed where he was, and a few minutes later, Dad went back to him, asked him if he knew why he got spanked, and if he would stay inside now until his father said he could go outside.

"Yes," replied the child.

"Okay, you can get off the couch now," said the father, hugging his son as they parted.

Now that's what corporal punishment is about. The Bible says, in Proverbs: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death." That little boy will be less likely to willfully disobey his father after that incident, and next time might be much more serious. Next time, the child may be outside ready to run across the road and a truck might be coming.

Spanking in the right mode does not equal child abuse, period.

Carrie
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ASLAN IS ON THE MOVE!
magicfish
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I agree.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-06-22 09:56, magicfish wrote:
So realizing that its futile to explain canadian supply side economics to my toddler is insulting to her? ......ya.......right.


Now THAT'S reducto ad absurdum.

Quote:
On 2011-06-22 10:15, magicfish wrote:
After youve jumped all over that one, heres my response to your upcoming buffoonery. Children don't care weather their actions are socially acceptable, or embarrassing to you, or hurtful to others. Its not an insult, its nature.


"Socially acceptable" and "embarrassing to you" are not reasons to discipline a child.

And that is NOT the nature of children. They have a natural tendency for. empathy. It is often stifled by those constantly trying to "teach" them "because I said so."
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
magicfish
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Yes they are, and yes it is......oh, and you might wanna brush up on your latin.
critter
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The Bible says, in Proverbs: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death."


Is this near the part where it says if they talk back you can kill them?
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-06-22 10:18, Carrie Sue wrote:
Okay, family story:

I witnessed an instance of spanking by a father whose son wanted to go outside.

"No, son. Stay in here for a while."

The son walked over to the doorway, looked back at his father, and his father repeated the word no.

The son stepped over the threshold.

Dad was out of his chair in a second, across the room in two seconds, snatched up his son and carried him to the couch. He bent his son over his knee, swatted him twice on the butt with his hand (not hard), and then set him down and said, "Now, you stay there for a while."

There was no anger, no harsh words, and virtually no pain to the child. This was not violence. It was swift and unmistakeable correction for willful defiance of a Dad's order.

The child stayed where he was, and a few minutes later, Dad went back to him, asked him if he knew why he got spanked, and if he would stay inside now until his father said he could go outside.

"Yes," replied the child.

"Okay, you can get off the couch now," said the father, hugging his son as they parted.

Now that's what corporal punishment is about. The Bible says, in Proverbs: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death." That little boy will be less likely to willfully disobey his father after that incident, and next time might be much more serious. Next time, the child may be outside ready to run across the road and a truck might be coming.

Spanking in the right mode does not equal child abuse, period.

Carrie


Hey Carrie. Welcome back!


John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
abc
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Firstly, the rod refers to what was used for sheep and indicates guidance. It doesn't mean hitting them and it doesn't refer to a "stick" for hitting. Sarcastic comments about anyone's dislike for the bible and religion is not constructive to the argument.
I asked who had children because I find that many people against spanking do not have children and are looking at it from a "our world is better now than 20 years ago" point of view. it is not wrong or right.
I have a son. I try my utmost to not spank him and with patience so far it has only been necesary twice. It was one slap on his nappy and had the desired effect. Once he bit his mom and wouldn't let go because he was angry at her. Once he tried to stick a coin into a socket and when we put the childproof block on the socket he took it out and tried again. I smacked him and so far he has left the sockets alone.
I will add this though. The word "childproof" is BS. My son can open the childproof bottles faster than I can. Maybe he is just as smart as his daddy.
gdw
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Carrie, something does not have to cause pain to be violent. You did not explicitly say it does, but it would seem that was, at least partially, implied when you wrote "There was no anger, no harsh words, and virtually no pain to the child. This was not violence."

Violence includes the use of physical force to violate or intimidate.

You really think the kid wasn't intimidated in that moment?

Also, if you don't think it's violating, try spanking an adult next time they don't do something you ask. Then ask them if they felt it was a violation.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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Quote:
On 2011-06-22 12:01, abc wrote:
Sarcastic comments about anyone's dislike for the bible and religion is not constructive to the argument.


Who said anything about disliking the bible or religion? And who said it was sarcastic?
I happen to have a religion and I like it very much, thanks for asking.
And putting something in context certainly is constructive to the arguement.
If you're going to cite something to indicate why it's ok to spank then we need to know the full extent that this book says the punishment can extend. In this case, death.
Carrie brought the book up, so why is it ok for her to talk about it and not me? **** that.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
abc
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Quote:
On 2011-06-22 13:09, gdw wrote:
Carrie, something does not have to cause pain to be violent. You did not explicitly say it does, but it would seem that was, at least partially, implied when you wrote "There was no anger, no harsh words, and virtually no pain to the child. This was not violence."

Violence includes the use of physical force to violate or intimidate.

You really think the kid wasn't intimidated in that moment?

Also, if you don't think it's violating, try spanking an adult next time they don't do something you ask. Then ask them if they felt it was a violation.

so time outs are better?
Stay here until you calm down and then we can talk???
And the kid doesn't move because he doesn't feel intimidated. Give me a break. You're full of it.
Violence is not the only intimidation but until you don't see that, this argument is useless and you won't see it because it does not support your preconceived ideas.
critter
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Amazingly, there are people at my school who have never been spanked and somehow survived childhood. Weird, huh?
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
George Ledo
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I dunno... my parents weren't above spanking me, but there was always the "Don't do that" first and the "I told you not to do that" second and then the "If you do that again, you'll be sorry" third, before the belt came out. And even when the belt came out, I just had to say, okay, I won't do it any more, and peace was restored. I guess it worked because I knew they would apply that belt if I really insisted on it.

Of course, a couple of times I did manage to outrun one of them, and then we ended up having a laugh about it.

And look at me now. After all that, I'm perfectly normal. Smile
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Carrie Sue
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Quote:
On 2011-06-22 10:57, gdw wrote:
And that is NOT the nature of children. They have a natural tendency for. empathy. It is often stifled by those constantly trying to "teach" them "because I said so."


I fully disagree that empathy is a natural tendency for a child. They will hit another child with a stick and snatch a toy away from that other child and not care if the other child is crying. Empathy is learned, part of our humanity, and as Dr. Laura used to say, "Children are more animal than human."

Don't take that any further than it goes, OK?

Carrie
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Carrie Sue
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Quote:
On 2011-06-22 14:06, George Ledo wrote:
I dunno... my parents weren't above spanking me, but there was always the "Don't do that" first and the "I told you not to do that" second and then the "If you do that again, you'll be sorry" third, before the belt came out. And even when the belt came out, I just had to say, okay, I won't do it any more, and peace was restored. I guess it worked because I knew they would apply that belt if I really insisted on it.

Of course, a couple of times I did manage to outrun one of them, and then we ended up having a laugh about it.

And look at me now. After all that, I'm perfectly normal. Smile


One of my sisters was like you. Dad only had to look at her cockeyed and she would do what she was told to do. My other sister -- not so much. She got lickings all the time for willful disobedience.

So say the stories.

Strong-willed children need a spanking once in a while, when they're small, so they don't go all wrong when they're older.

Carrie
www.proximityillusions.com

ASLAN IS ON THE MOVE!
George Ledo
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I have some rather strong opinions about this topic, so I think I'll just back out quietly. Except for one comment... Smile

I don't have kids, but I've had any number of people working for me over the years, I was in the military, I've worked with volunteers, I've led large architectural and theme-park projects, and I've taught college and adult classes. And I've found exactly the same situation every time: somebody is always going to end up training the others. With employees, it's either I train them or they train me. With a class or a shop crew, it's either I run it or they run it. Even with our cats right now: either they train us to give them a snack every time they ask for one, or they don't.

For me, it's not about power. It's about job descriptions. Parents have job descriptions and kids have job descriptions. My parents taught me the difference very early.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
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critter
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On 2011-06-22 14:19, Carrie Sue wrote:
Strong-willed children need a spanking once in a while, when they're small, so they don't go all wrong when they're older.

Carrie


Or... "strong willed" children might have other emotional problems that routine spanking could make worse.

My personal experience isn't in being spanked. I was flat out beat. And it was one of many things that contributed to my twisted brain.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Carrie Sue
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Again, there is a distinct difference between Biblical, disciplined discipline (spanking) and beating.

The first does not produce emotional problems. The second does.

I'm sorry for you.

Carrie
www.proximityillusions.com

ASLAN IS ON THE MOVE!
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