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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Yes indeed.
Perhaps the precise mechanism is different? I do not know. What I do know is that the IR mechanism is not an engineering innovation. That sort of engineering predates the whole shebang. IR is a very specific effect (and no, I do mean effect, not trick). That of a pack of cards turning into a block of steel. It would be missing a trick, to say the least, in not routining it with a Deck Switch, this increasing the effect ten-fold. Matchbox illusions don't compare. Yes, it seems an obvious development, doesn't it? Just like gravity is obvious, and the solar system is obvious. If I ever need a replacement for my IR, I'll do the obvious thing and buy it from Jamie D. Grant (we're from the same Clan). Another obvious thing is that Jamie, bless his cotton socks, does not go in for infighting, intrigue or bull****; he will not get involved, as he has stated earlier. Maybe a separate topic is in order? Or. Maybe not. It's that thing called "the oxygen of publicity". Stiffy will be quite certain of his legal footing; there is nothing to see here other than typically s****y behaviour from Stiffy. Those c***s who always do will buy it. The rest of us will not. |
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Mark8infiniti Special user 612 Posts |
I own an IR, but I think Mark at Saturn's response is totally diplomatic and respectable. For all those slamming him down, take a back seat. Mark Traversoni is one of the good guys in magic, and he ALWAYS tries to do the right thing. I've no reason to ever buy Impact over IR, and, cannot see anyone else doing the same. Does anyone actually own it? Is it EXACTLY the same?? Is it the exact same mechanic? Same finish? Same alloy? Same lifespan?
I know Jamie is an awesome guy, but I think the only thing going against him here is the fact it is not available to buy from dealers. I know he has his reasons for this and wants to keep quality control high etc... but even so, you can see why someone would want to make the concept of IR available to the mass market?? Just a bit of a joke it is THE EXACT same product, even more expensive!!! Can anyone compare the two? when I watched the impact video, I thought the 'line' was TOYALLY VISIBLE!?!?!? no??
iNFiNiTi | The Red Pill Magician | SHOCK NOT IMPRESS
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Hey, I like Mark too, from most of what I see he is up to. But this?
Some things don't go out to retailers. Wow. That is no justification for nicking an idea and banging in an open goal. C'mon.... |
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Mark8infiniti Special user 612 Posts |
But, I AM 10000 percent sure, if he stocked IR and sold it, he WOULD NOT have taken impact?
From a ruthless point of view, he owes Jamie and IR nothing. Jamie has the complete monopoly on this then, which means, he will NEVER be able to sell it? Like he says, what about the person who created the original matchbox?? Where do you draw the line? If the block is 1mm bigger and put in a tally ho case, isn't that a sizeable difference?? Mark is so right, if Jamie doesn't own the rights to the design of the product, and, it is NOT being sold through him, why shouldn't he stock an alternative? I know there's a moral argument, but I don't think ANYONE HAS anything to worry about, because nobody in the magic community will buy impact over IR - IR is absolutely spot on. We all know it. Who cares if there's a rip off on the market??? The ONLY people who will buy impact are fools, total noobs, or people who don't like sending money to america. JAMIE WILL NOT LOSE OUT AT ALL. This is the equivalent of Apple worrying about a phone released by Cadburys. I for one welcome competition in the world of magic props. If someone wants to go out there, take the IR mechanic (which has already taken on a previous mechanic), and improve it, and make it available to the mass market then fair enough! If they don't improve it, like impact, then it's only gonna fail. Who cares? WHAT about the people who created there own fire wallets? Should they not be allowed? Poeple who make sponge balls? Shaould they not be allowed to manufacture sponge balls? What about the 10000s of companies who make THEIR OWN FLIPPER COINS?????? Should we ONLY BUY from the ORIGINAL ORIGINAL ORIGINAL creator? What about THUMB TIPS????? HOW DARE a plastic manufacturing company produce their own thumb tips!!!!!! Not to mention hankerchiefs!!!! Just think about it for a minute.... are we honestly living in a world where nobody is allowed to make their own props? Where do you draw the line. And for the record, I love IR and will never buy an alternative unless it's better which impact isn't.
iNFiNiTi | The Red Pill Magician | SHOCK NOT IMPRESS
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Mark8infiniti Special user 612 Posts |
P.S Jamie I'm ordering a new one from you on Tuesday!!!!!!!!!!!!! ))))))))))))
iNFiNiTi | The Red Pill Magician | SHOCK NOT IMPRESS
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
It's a strong argument, and well put. Let's just say we agree that Industrial Revelation is a fantastic piece of work.
Best, Tom |
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Mark8infiniti Special user 612 Posts |
Yeh. but man,....
I actually just read back my last few posts, and, I feel guilty suddenly. You guys are right, it is a total clone. There are NO improvements at all. You are right Tomski, it;s someone trying to cash in on an empty net... such product should only be released with complete credit to Jamie's original. I see non of that. I am ALL for people trying to manufacture their own version of a masterpiece and sell it locally if they credit the original and improve the design, but this is not the case is it? One thing's for sure, none of us will buy impact, there is absolutely no benefit. I am just trying to see where Saturn are coming from, and, I do not blame them in the slightest for taking it in, under the iffy circumstances, and, I don;t think anyone else should either.
iNFiNiTi | The Red Pill Magician | SHOCK NOT IMPRESS
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Julie Inner circle 3936 Posts |
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On May 24, 2014, Jamie Ferguson wrote: For sake of this kind of discussion, this is a very important fact! Julie |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
I agree to a point, but I would reiterate that it was no engineering innovation. The creative process here has always been to do with concept.
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Jamie Ferguson Inner circle Alba Gu Brà th 3640 Posts |
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On May 24, 2014, magicmarkworldwide2 wrote: Just to be clear, you need to order from Jamie D. Grant, not Jamie Ferguson. I'm only on this thread to ensure dealers do the right thing when it comes to Stiffy's copy.
When the chips are down, the duvet is uncomfortable.
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Jamie D. Grant V.I.P. as seen in Ripley's Believe It or Not! Twice! 2413 Posts |
Heya Gang!
What a great conversation! Although I'd obviously rather it have come forth from a different set of circumstances, lol, it's still a good one. So before I start, there is one thing that I have stayed true throughout my entire Online Life: Never argue,. Don't get into Internet fights (there is never a winner). Only say kind things. So, keeping to that personal set of rules, I still need to help out all my friends who have come to my support (THANK YOU!!!) and offer some of my own insight... Before anything regarding Matchbox Penetration, I personally feel (and I understand that others might not agree) that Industrial Revelation is a significant change over Matchbox Penetration. In my mind, it's a completely different effect. There are thousands of "penetration" effects, Matchbox, Ball through Glass, etc. But Industrial Revelation: 1) Is a different size. 2) Uses a different container. 3) Utilizes the illusion of the change of a deck of cards into a block of steel (what a lot of spectators actually remember happening), thereby changing the effect itself. And, I'm proud to say, every single person I've ever showed - which, as a writer for MAGIC Magazine and dealer at 3 MAGIC Lives, is a TON of people - AGREE. And I'm talking about the biggest names in magic. Every person I trust and respect agreed with me. But you know what? I knew they would! Do you know why? Because if I thought for a second that they wouldn't, then I wouldn't have made produced IR! I understand that I legally could, just as others can, but I'm not concerned with just that. I have my own personal morals and ethics that I need to answer to. I LOVE to sleep, lol- and I need to make sure I can do so every night. Nothing makes me prouder than to say that I absolutely do so soundly. So, for me and everyone I spoke with and showed to, IR isn't the same. Okay, with that out of the way, let me state that I love our art. I love magic and I love history. And, obviously, my idea had to come from somewhere, right?! So, right off the bat, I credited Matchbox Penetration as inspiration in both the instructions and the 3 e-mails I send out (providing the best customer service has always been my game plan!). I think crediting is essential- even if it just spurs a thought - but I needed to find out who actually created it. In my research, I found that the Matchbox illusion has actually been around since before the sixties and that no one could remember the very first. (Danny Orleans, however, bought the rights to the Spanish version and, you guessed it, supported Industrial Revelation and even provides an amazing routine for it!!) Okay, so now that I feel Industrial Revelation is a new effect; The original creator of the effect that inspired it can't be found and has probably long since passed; And the remotest connection is that someone who owns the rights to a modern version also agrees with me, surely I'm in the clear, right?! Well, last year... I was contacted by Bob Solari- an amazing magician and creator, who told me he came up with the same idea of Industrial Revelation in the early nineties!!! An effect called "A Case Of Penetration"! Wha?!?! I had no idea. So what did I do? After all, Industrial Revelation had already been selling for 3 years when Bob contacted me, and I had a lot of money invested. Surely this would be a tough decision? Absolutely not!! I phoned Bob (not just responded to his email) and asked him to tell me what to do. I would honor his choice, without question. Period. And he kindly gave me his blessing and simply asked to be mentioned on my site and in the instructions- which I did immediately. Bob, if you ever read this- You're the Greatest- thanks!!! So that's where I'm at, I guess. I am 100%, no doubt in my mind, as sure as I could be about anything, that Industrial Revelation has been brought to market as a honest as could be and that it is its own effect. Saysold, on another thread, had a great point that if someone were to make a version that was the size of a book and out of aluminum, then that would be different than mine. And I agree! And I'd have no problem with that. What I do , personally, have a problem with is when things are exactly the same (and by "exactly", I mean that a layperson can't tell the difference -if you showed Matchbox Penetration and Industrial Revelation to an audience, on different days, they would describe them differently, for sure!). That's when I think our art starts to sink, as opposed to rise. But I've been dealing with this, via the Anything Is Possible bottle, for years. So I'm actually well practiced in dealing with it. And, at the end of the day, there's nothing I can do. As we all know; it's not illegal. But that doesn't mean that it's right. So where does that leave me? Strangely, in a great place! As much as I don't agree with it and wish it was taken off the shelves, this other effect only helps me. As long as I know that I have the best quality control and customer service, people will always shop at www.SendWonder.com .If people do their research, I'm pretty sure they'd buy the "Trick Of the Year" version, which Industrial Revelation is. The only problem for me is someone buys another version thinking it's mine. That's gonna suck for someone and I'm going to feel bad about it. Especially if they think it's an IR and start trashing it. But, like a lot of this, that's out of my hands. So, at the end of the day, I hope: 1) People do some research. 2) Morally support people they think have the same belief system as themselves. 3) Read reviews and make educated choices. 4) Stand up for what they think is right (and for their friends when it's the right thing to do). 5) Be nice to each other. If you've done that and would like to shop with me, Industrial Revelation, can be purchased here with my thanks, support, and love, at: www.SendWonder.com You guys rock. Your pal, jamie
TRICK OF THE YEAR: Industrial Revelation, BOOK OF THE YEAR: The Approach, The AIP Bottle, and my new book Scenic 52, can all be found over here: SendWonder.com
Kindness takes practice. My TEDx talk |
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Jamie Ferguson Inner circle Alba Gu Brà th 3640 Posts |
Thanks JDG, great to hear from you. Was interesting to hear your take on things. Always very positive.
Mark, now you've heard what JDC has had to say, what says you? I'm keen to reach a point of agreement here with all parties.
When the chips are down, the duvet is uncomfortable.
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Ray Chelt Special user Changing the world with my 988 Posts |
Quote:
On May 25, 2014, Jamie Ferguson wrote: If Thor or The Hulk ever has a bad case of Man Flu, I recommend Jamie F as a stand in for them in the Avengers. All powerful and awesome,and a real force for justice, he'd be just the ticket. Go Jamie !! |
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saysold1 Eternal Order Recovering Cafe addict with only 10794 Posts |
Quote:
On May 24, 2014, Saturn UK wrote: Robb Stiff didn't develop matchbox penetration - that happened 30 years prior to his supposed version which may have been one of many designs of this effect. That rationalization holds no water as this new Impact release is a knock off. As such Mark, hopefully you'll do what's right and what should be clear as you always do.
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of aerospace level quality, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
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Jamie Ferguson Inner circle Alba Gu Brà th 3640 Posts |
Quote:
On May 25, 2014, saysold1 wrote: Hey, you're jumping on the bandwagon after I got the wheels rolling via some difficult conversations. If Mark decides to pull the product it'll be mainly because of my canvassing (as was the case with MJM).
When the chips are down, the duvet is uncomfortable.
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
When Scoop is on the case, you know there'll be fireworks...
Great to read Jamie's (D. Grant) response. Onwards and upwards. |
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Saturn UK Inner circle 2658 Posts |
After a lot of thought and communicating with Jamie D G I have decided to pull this from the website.
Hopefully I get my rewards one day for trying to run my business in the right way when others are just in it to make money regardless.
www.saturnmagic.co.uk
#theshopwithstock Pleased to be different! FACEBOOK: www.facebook.com/saturnmagic.co.uk |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Back on top of the A list, Mark; I'll be purchasing from you as before. Good man.
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Jamie Ferguson Inner circle Alba Gu Brà th 3640 Posts |
The Scoopmaster triumphs again.
That's MJM, now Saturn Magic. 2 hits, 2 home runs. J-Ferg is hitting them out of the park. Thanks for the support Mark. Time for the Scoopmaster to recharge his batteries for the next battle.
When the chips are down, the duvet is uncomfortable.
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sam2452 New user 99 Posts |
Hello all, I have a question. I have this trick about a year now and my gimmick getting rusted. What do I use to shine it back up?
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