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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Its integrity is eroded when it's elevated to a higher status than the concepts it represents.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Steven Conner Inner circle 2720 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-06-22 14:19, LobowolfXXX wrote: Obviously that's beyond your comprehension.
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I think it's your comprehension that's limited here, but I'll try to use small words - Sometimes people who fully understand your point still disagree with it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Donal Chayce Inner circle 1770 Posts |
Steven, have you ever seen P&T's "Patriotism" routine? I have, and I have to say that it left me feeling profoundly moved and proud to be a citizen of this country. Indeed, it restored a pride that, for a variety of reasons, had been long-dimmed.
Here's a link to a YouTube video of the routine, but it doesn't begin to compare with the experience of seeing P&T perform it live. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF2iX2VG6e4 |
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Steven Conner Inner circle 2720 Posts |
Donal, there are many great messages to be learned. P&T are great performers. There is no need to justify an action that should be respected. The Bill of Rights is no greater than fighting to protect and perserve those rights. We say the American Flag is just a symbol, but its what that symbol represents. It is still not to be desecrated. These arguments will probably never end, but people could choose to burn anything instead of the flag. Just don't tell me how much you love this country and then go burn a flag.
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
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Steven Conner Inner circle 2720 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-06-22 14:35, LobowolfXXX wrote: In words you can understand. OUR LEGAL FRIENDS At some time or other in our lives, we all need the services of an attorney. I have many precious friends who earn their living at the “ Bar of Justice.” I have asked a number of them just why lawyers, in their written documents, should resort to the use of a language that is only distantly related to good English. One who hears or reads the oral arguments of a talented lawyer is impressed by its lucidity, simplicity, and force. But if one turns to the indictment, complaint, petition, brief, or other legal documents in the case, one is amazed to think that the two were the product of the same mind. The former is excellent ENGLISH and the latter is mere JARGON. For example, if you wanted to give your friends an orange, you would simply say, “ have an orange.” But if you engage a lawyer to put the transaction in legal verbiage, it would assume this ponderous form: “ I hereby give and convey to you, all and singular, my estates and interests, right and title, claim and advantage of and in said orange, together with all its rind, juice, pulp, or pips, anything herein before or hereafter or in any other means of whatever notice or kind whatsoever to the contrary in any wise not withstanding.” And then after all this, the chances are that another lawyer may come along, and with more jargon of the same sort, take the orange away from you. So it is with our legal friends.
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Do you think that a law that said it's illegal to wear a T-shirt that says "Obama in 2012" would be unconstitutional?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
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Well, I guess I'm going to be radical. I don't think people should be locked-up just executed. Well that sounds perfectly reasonable... (backing out of room cautiously.)
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Carrie Sue Veteran user Auburn, MI 332 Posts |
Burning the American flag is the perfectly respectable way to destroy a mutilated flag. That's in the U.S. Flag Code.
Burning the American flag as a political protest, however, is about the strongest symbol that you're opposed to the ideals and principles of this country that you can get. I can understand why it engenders strong feelings and strong responses. Do I think we need to ban flag burning though? Probably not. Carrie |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-06-22 15:27, Steven Conner wrote: It's definitely true that a lot of legal writing is too wordy, and there are all sorts of great books and seminars to train lawyers to write in more clear English, led by Brian Garner, the guru of legal writing. Garner essentially goes back to Strunk & White: Omit needless words. On the other hand, though, those words are in there for a reason. Take a simple contract between two non-lawyers for the purchase of a sandwich. The purchaser don't need no stinkin' lawyer, so he writes his own contract, and it looks like your orange contract - "I agree to pay Joe $3 for a sandwich, and Joe agrees to sell me a sandwich for $3." Joe takes his $3, and gives him a sandwich with mud as the filling. Joe wins the lawsuit, because he did, in fact, provide a sandwich. He decides not to business with Joe anymore, so he contracts to buy a sandwich with Bob, and he writes a contract that includes a provision that it's supposed to be a roast beef sandwich. Bob takes his $3 and gives him a roast beef sandwich that's 1/4" square. Bob wins the lawsuit. Our hero decides to go into the sandwich-selling business, and being an honest guy, when he arranges to sell his first sandwich, he makes a bona fide huge sandwich exactly like he'd want to get, and he hands it to John. John takes the sandwich, eats it, and tells him it's great, and he'll pay him when he can, because our hero's contract didn't have a provision specifying when payment was due. And people wonder why there's so much language in those contracts.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-06-22 16:03, Carrie Sue wrote: I don't agree with this part of your post. Maybe it's just a sign that you're opposed to the people running the country currently. Or opposed to particular actions taken by those people. It doesn't have to mean that you're opposed to the ideals and principles of the country. It could be quite the opposite.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Carrie Sue Veteran user Auburn, MI 332 Posts |
It can't be a symbol that you're opposed to the people running the country currently, because you can burn a sign that says, "Congress" or burn someone in effigy.
I don't know how burning the symbol of the whole country can at its core level mean anything less than, "I hate this country and everything it stands for." Carrie |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2011-06-22 13:25, LobowolfXXX wrote: I was too busy enjoying watching someone else take it for a bit As mentioned, the "proper" disposal of a flag involves burning it: http://www.independentmail.com/news/2011......eremony/ Patriotic duty, or offensive rotten child? If those who oppose flag burning are ok with the above disposal of a flag, then clearly it is not the ACT that they object to, but what is being SAID with the act.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Carrie Sue Veteran user Auburn, MI 332 Posts |
There you go, thank you Glenn.
Carrie |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
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On 2011-06-22 16:09, LobowolfXXX wrote: Agreed. Abraham killed his son as a test of loyalty. I can see how burning the flag could be interpreted in a similar way. You destroy it (even though this is personally upsetting to you) in order to illustrate the freedom under it that you can. Not saying many actually do it for that reason, though.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Olympic Adam Inner circle 1259 Posts |
What is a flag? how can a piece of material become something sacred in a land of freedom?
if you want to burn a flag, burn a flag, if you don't, don't you can stop me burning a flag no more than I can stop you smoking or drinking. I have never burnt a flag, but if I want to I think I will. Watching the patriotism routine above a long time ago I really felt a strong sense of being free. I am not american, but I get the impression that I can buy a gun but can't burn a piece of material? Can I shoot the material? Or is it just burning that is bad?
Protection for mind readers and mentalists: http://tricksofthemind.com
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-06-22 16:19, Carrie Sue wrote: Hey, someone thanked me for something I posted. Thanks Carrie.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2011-06-22 16:22, Olympic Adam wrote: Well there are plenty trying to stop you from smoking, and plenty already stopping you from drinking completely freely.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts |
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On 2011-06-22 16:18, gdw wrote: I thought it was supposed to be folded up. |
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Steven Conner Inner circle 2720 Posts |
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On 2011-06-22 16:03, Carrie Sue wrote: Yes Carrie, you are right, but the thread is not about the proper disposal of a flag. Otherwise, I totally agree with you. Adam, there again, its not just a piece of cloth but what it represents.
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
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