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RichardShure Veteran user 344 Posts |
There has been a great deal of discussion on this subject lately…so here are my thoughts.
First we have to agree on a couple of points: 1. The Magic Café is a microcosm in the magic world. 2. There is a great deal of cronyism in the Café. 3. We are collectors of secrets . . . and love owning them whether we perform them or not. 4. Many in here wish to make money selling their secrets. 5. A good secret is entirely subjective . . . based on the fact that there is such a wide range of abilities, knowledge, experience, and prejudices. I have no problem with people charging whatever price they want for their secret. Paul Vigil and Jerome Finely have both asked $1000 for a product here in the café. Whether I purchase it or not depends on my desires, expectations, beliefs in the authors abilities, and my wallet. This is Capitalism and demand will determine whether a price is justified. That being said . . . there are some artificial enhancers in the café. One: Authors will give copies of their work to other café members for review. (this borders on cronyism here) These reviewers will sing praises and do dances claiming that Author A’s work will change how you perform mentalism. Even if the price is $250, they will claim it is worth every penny. This statement becomes false. Why? They didn’t pay for the product and most likely there are other factors within the review. Such as: 1. I am his friend…don’t want to knock his product. 2. I might be coming out with my own product soon and will need some positive reviews. You see when you get a free product…it is easy to say it is worth every penny that you did not pay. I am very much more interested in the people’s opinions that did pay. Of course, in the café, it is difficult to determine if they did pay. There is a great deal of anonymity and secrecy among friends here. Not to mention the exchanging of my product for your product. See, now I can claim I paid for it . . . sort of. Since there are many, many people who are beginners, hobbyists, and non-performers in here, who’s opinion am I going to value? Having a large number of posts does not equate to knowledge or ability. It just means you have a lot of time on your hands. We are merely sucked into the blind chase of secrets. Someone has one. They want to sell it. They farm it out to their friends who give it glowing reports. Suddenly, you are sitting on the outside. You don’t get to talk about it because you don’t have it. Now you must purchase it so you can join the “in-crowd”. Amazingly, many people who have very limited knowledge of mentalism churn out . . . lots of crap here. More than once I have purchased and read a booklet that was just old rehashed material from the older tomes of mentalism. I have seen Bob Cassidy’s material repackaged, along with Al Baker, Corrinda, Annemann, Fogel, Koran . . . the list goes on and on. And the by the way the rehashed material usually is inferior to the original. It is grabbed up because most on the café have not read the pillars of mentalism . . . they derive most of their knowledge from right here in the green place. That being said, I have found some gems here…but they are few and far between. Who have I discovered here that I thought created good material: Julian Moore, Thomas Baxter, Mick Ayres, Patrick Redford, and Hector Chadwick. So now when I see . . .so and so put out some latest and greatest material that will change how I perform mentalism…I consider the source. Pete Legend made a good post in anther thread about looking in the mirror and asking what you are really doing. And Mindpunisher made a good rebuttal to a Christopher Taylor remark in that same thread. So in conclusion…charge what you want. I won’t dump on you, but don’t expect me to open my wallet based on the hype here in the café. |
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Looch Inner circle Off by 3362 Posts |
Nail on head moment Richard...I mentioned something in the same vein here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=15
For me its about reading between the lines, and knowing yourself as a performer. Good post
Mentalism Products: https://www.readmymind.co.uk/ Learn Mentalism with the Pro's: https://www.mymind.rocks
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DekEl Inner circle Creates MindTricks. Has exactly: 1172 Posts |
Quote:
One: Authors will give copies of their work to other café members for review. (this borders on cronyism here) These reviewers will sing praises and do dances claiming that Author A’s work will change how you perform mentalism. Even if the price is $250, they will claim it is worth every penny. This statement becomes false. Slight note, this section is a fallacy. The statement does not _necessarily_ become false merely because the person likes the creator and got it for free. It may be false, or it may be true. They definitely have some level of motivation to lie. I personally try to limit this by giving my works out for review to whoever asks firsts, friends or not, but two points of motivation do not equal an untruth. In many cases the "crony" would have purchased the product and said it was worth every penny even if they had not received it for free. In some cases not. But it's a stretch to say that every review "becomes false" merely based on these two criteria. Just trying to clear something up, no harm or bad feelings intended.
You can purchase my works at: http://www.GetMindTricks.com
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
I have noticed what you point out here in the Caf�, RichardShure...
Imho, to lessen this type of confusion with purchases in Mentalism in general... Write a Script for your Act/Show and be clear of your Character. Then you should only get the stuff you really need that fulfills the needs in that Script you wrote. As an example, let's say you want to perform a Blindfold Act. You would then purchase Blindfold Act material. No mystery there. However, here's the good thing about this approach, even if you buy some "bad" or impractical stuff, it still helps you in knowing what NOT to do in your Blindfold Act. You learn from the good and the bad buys as you are focused on a certain subject. "You can learn from everyone. Some, what to do and most, what not to do." - Dan Inosanto - The problem lies usually in people buying everything that "looks good" thus buying a bit of everything of everything... (And everyone makes their product "look good" by any and all means just as you've pointed out...) My approach is not perfect but it does "focus" your purchases hopefully lessening your grief. But that' MY take on it.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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bevbevvybev Inner circle UK 2672 Posts |
Glad you enjoy my books. Thanks for the mention.
I've been sent stuff to review in the past. Like most people, if I don't like something I simply don't mention it. However, if I BUY something and I don't like it, I'm usually pretty vocal about it. Which proves one of the points made here. |
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Garrette Special user 926 Posts |
I agree with RichardShure's OP, with DekEl's caveat. I have purchased some high priced items, some from things I have learned on here. Most of those items have been worth it, but I recognize that I really mean it was worth it to me. Not all have been worth it, but this is true of much less expensive items I have bought, too. I find myself agreeing with ThomasCooper a lot and wishing I could write so clearly and forthrightly.
All that said, much of it does come down to trust and reputation when deciding both what to buy and how much to spend. An example is "The Way Up," the recent collaboration between Paul Brook and Colin McLeod. I understand the objections to the price, but I have nearly all of Paul's books and a few of Colin's, and my experience leads me to think they will not sell me junk. My hesitation now is in fitting their price in my budget, not on concerns for the value. So I suppose I would add those two names to RichardShure's list of who here has created good material; I would also add Looch. So to quit rambling: Yes, there are cliques on the Café, and mutual back-scratching, and a reluctance to post bad reviews. That makes the Café like every other site on the internet and every magic club in the world (granted that my experience with magic clubs is limited). The important thing is to be aware of it and to make your decisions with that knowledge. |
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Garrette Special user 926 Posts |
Quote: That's a reasonable approach to take, but I'm going to offer an alternative from the seller's point of view. [Disclaimer: I have never created nor attempted to sell any effect at all, so it's easy for me to think what I am suggesting here has value; those with actual experience would have to determine if it really does}
On 2011-06-23 13:08, bevbevvybev wrote: Suppose that I, the hypothetical seller, creates an effect or writes a book. Here is what I suggest: 1. Send it free to respected performers. Tell them I do not want a review; whatever they say will not go in the effect or in the marketing. Tell them instead that I want their thoughts on weaknesses and how to address them. 2. Further, tell the reviewers that I have not given them performance rights. I 3. Once the critiques have been received and acted upon (or not), tell the reviewers I will sell them performance rights at a heavily discounted rate in gratitude for their input. 4. Finally, tell the reviewers I do not ask for nor expect any public reviews but will not object if they post positive or negative reviews so long as they make it clear if they are reviewing the first version they received or the revised version they purchased (at discount). Sound doable? |
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brehaut Inner circle kentucky 2531 Posts |
For those who complain about cliques---with a little homework I think you can look around and see what reviews you believe are more reliable and those that are less reliable. Also, I have noticed that products with just one or two positive reviews and no negative ones and very few comments are generally junk. Great products usually have a ton of reviews (and even one or two negative reviews) and stay active for quite awhile.
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RichardShure Veteran user 344 Posts |
Bill Dekel,
I will agree with your statement, you are correct it does not make it absolutely false. My real point being... the review by this person is suspect at best. I would rather read the review from someone who invested their hard earned cash and tell me its worth it, than some one who received it for free and is telling me that WOULD have purchased it. Pakar, I agree we need to know what we really need . . . but as I stated..we all like to know the secrets. That is our Achilles heal. In a perfect world your post would work just fine. Everyone else, I am not looking for an answer to this dilemma, most of us have our answer. I was just responding to some other threads that were talking about how much is a fair amount to be charged. In my world Cassidy, Banachek, Annemann would be $1000 and some of these other offerings.... a few McDonalds coupons would probably cover it. But the market will bring what it brings...based on hype, cronyism, false expectations and not necessarily always on quality. |
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DekEl Inner circle Creates MindTricks. Has exactly: 1172 Posts |
Agreed. The dynamics of a market based on secrets and ideas are very different then a market based on tangible objects that you can look at or use like a car or a chair. You can rarely show demos, and thus reviews are a necessity.
You can purchase my works at: http://www.GetMindTricks.com
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Mind Guerrilla Inner circle Queens, NY 2670 Posts |
It's not pricing alone that causes heartburn. It's also the vague/misleading ad copy that accompanies such pricey effects.
Some high priced effects cry out for a video demo. Is it asking too much to show me something before I give you my money? "But if I show it to you, you might not think it's worth the money!" If that's the case...then it probably isn't. Then there is the "limited edition/pre-order" jazz. The creator makes his money before anyone has a chance to review it. And if there's a negative review? So what? All the copies have been sold already. It's like buying miracle tonic from a medicine show that skips town in the middle of the night. As we say here in the US, no one wants to "buy a pig in a poke". |
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DekEl Inner circle Creates MindTricks. Has exactly: 1172 Posts |
That's true to a point. In other words, very often people do hear how an effect works and discard it after they know the secret if they didn't pay for it.
You can purchase my works at: http://www.GetMindTricks.com
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bevbevvybev Inner circle UK 2672 Posts |
I do pre-orders to give myself a deadline when I'm nearing completion of a book. Also it lets people know it's coming.
If I didn't do pre-orders there's a chance I'd never finish them at all! I need a bit of a scare on to spur me on to completion. And also, it gives the people who like and support my work the chance to get it a little cheaper. I think it would be different if I hadn't written so many of the stupid things. If it was my first then no one would care about a pre-release. |
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Mind Guerrilla Inner circle Queens, NY 2670 Posts |
Are video demos a double-edged sword? As I said in another thread, it was a video demo of Paul Brook's "Serial, Killer!" that convinced me to buy his book, "On Mephisto's Shoulder."
Let's say Derren Brown wanted to sell "Reminiscence". Do you think a video demo would hurt sales? I don't. How many mentalists saw that effect performed and were then willing to give their left arm for a first edition of "Pure Effect"? |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Where does the following fit:
I write up something that I've been using, and send a few copies to people who are my peers - that I trust and look up to...they happen to say positive and good things about it, when they know they can say "iain - its a load of old s***...don't be silly..."
I've asked to be banned
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Jim-Callahan V.I.P. 5018 Posts |
To compare specialty works to the basic texts of this art
in an attempt to quantify value is a bit off the mark. Even at the time that the basic texts of this field were originally offered, special high dollar manuscripts were being sold. I have decided to charge a slightly higher fee for my new work. (The reason being my time is worth more now than it was). Many pro’s use material from my original DVD’s and manuscripts to make money and as I see it if you can make money with the information or create a better performance it is of value. Note: That none of my work has ever been offered for free to anyone for a review. Everyone who posted a review of any of my work has paid for it. All of my original releases were limited and pre-sale. That was done to cover production costs and for the reasons Bev cited above. The first chapter of ‘A Mind in Chains’ will be $150.00 rental. But people will know exactly what they are getting. I think that is extremely fair considering the information is intended for serious artists and pro-performers and is intended to be used in paid performance. That is my target audience. Best Wishes, Jim
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
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Mind Guerrilla Inner circle Queens, NY 2670 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-06-23 16:56, bevbevvybev wrote: "Pre-order" alone is not a problem. It's when it's combined with "limited edition" and an effect whose details are shrouded in secrecy that my nervous twitch kicks in. |
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RichardShure Veteran user 344 Posts |
Don't even get me started on "Limited Release"....unbelievable. That is a gate that is totally unguarded. There have been a few that have stood by their word (like Callahan) but many have re-limited released.
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Simon (Ted) Edwards Inner circle London 1528 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-06-23 17:53, RichardShure wrote: I think you should name names. |
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joemcdull Regular user 178 Posts |
If you think someone is releasing old rehashed material, the best way to stop them is to mention their Name here! Why people still keeping their mouth shut when they think something is bad?
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