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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
“Since the primary aim of a magician's art is to entertain the public, the importance of
the following rule is self-evident:- (3) Avoid complexity of Procedure, and never tax either the Patience or the memory of an audience. The thing presented should appear to consist in a perfectly regular and natural series of operations; and, when the final effect is produced, it should be capable of instant appreciation. If its appreciation is made to depend upon any conscious mental activity or any effort of memory on the part of the audience, a proper effect can seldom be achieved. If, in order to understand precisely what has happened, the spectators have to reflect, even for a few moments, upon the various stages of procedure which led up to the denouement, it is certain that, from an artistic point of view, the presentation must be unsatisfactory. ….....” - Nevil Maskelyne- You have meddled with the primal forces of magic, Mr Wheeler, and I won't have it! Is that clear? :)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Yup -- and illustrates why the term "critical thinking" is inaccurate when describing what happens in a spectator's mind at the moment of magic recognition. Later on they may attempt to deconstruct the mystery, but the initial resolution of the dilemma is not a deliberate ot conscious action. "Instant appreciation" is the objective, without even " a few moments" of reflection.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Wrong. The critical thinking process is happening throughout the presentation. The surprise and the "instant appreciation" comes from receiving the conclusion "Magic!" How do the spectators know anything uncommon has happened? What makes them surprised? How do they come to the conclusion something "impossible" happened?
Alan, why would you say the Pop Haydn character is not to be taken seriously? He definitely meant to be taken seriously. What do you mean? |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
The fact that you disagree does not make me "wrong." The conclusion "magic" occurs at the neural net level without deliberate or conscious thought. There are many new books out now that describe this process.
They are "surprised" because the anticipated result provided by the mirror neurons does not match what is observed/experience and the Lymbic System kicks if for self protection. The 4-F responses are overridden by the conditioning to accept "magic" as a cause -- and the carefully staged routine has eliminated other causes. This process is not "deliberate" -- thus, not "critical thinking" at that point. A magic effect makes use of this autonomous process by creating both an anticipated result and conditioning that a magic result will take place at some point. This is why character that allows for magic and saying/indicating that one is a magician is critical. Yes, Critical Thinking may be part of accepting that the performer is a magician and forming the expectation/anticipation htta something magical is about to occur -- and later in any attempt to deconstruct or create a story -- but the "moment of magic recognition" MUST be autonomous as Maskelyne notes. Whit -- I don't invent this stuff -- just pass on what I learn from research. It does not contradict your Dilemma Theory -- but augments it. We can both "be right" -- a good magic effect does require Critical Thinking, but not at the moment of Surprise.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Folks, one way to finding commonality is to slowly walk around the perimeters of the regions we identify using language and explore how we get from here to there, mark off the boundaries and generally use a finer brush to paint in the doubled fences in our models so others can accept the constructs as they are. That's the walk with approach which is very good after you've led them around the commonly held "good" a few times. During the walk with exercises you can guide by directing focus toward things to look at in more detail (toward your desired center/value) and focus rational awareness/non-sentimental/true but not fulfilling away from things which don't lead "toward" your desired path or toward the center of the lesson.
I expect that there are things that "Pop" might not be able to answer in detail if pressed about his life before he traveled here. But then again if your typical coin guy were glue foamed right after a coin vanish and then carefully inspected folks could find where the coin went as well. The original post about the rhetorical tools of establishing rapport, appeals to commonality used as matrix/foundation for construction of a desired framework etc is, IMHO solid analysis. I feel that the notion of "right" is where we could quickly get off the solid foundation and into divergent unconstructive linguistic quicksand.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Donnie Loyal user 224 Posts |
Funsway,
I might take you more seriously if you spelled 'limbic' correctly. Also, no agent deconstructs a mystery. The mystery deconstructs itself. If that sounds too esoteric for you then you no nothing of deconstruction. As for all the talk of mirror neurons and so forth, magic cannot/should not be reduced to a materialistic account of brain activity. The most hardline reductionist would not claim that the mona lisa was merely a collection of molecules, would he? Alan, People are uncomfortable with Harry Potter because they come from a place of narrow lawns and even narrower minds (to steal from a deadman). 'Ethics' does not really enter into it. The question becomes, "How commensurable is this with my worldview?" For the record, Tolkien and Cs Lewis, especially, are didactic hacks. There's a reason ethics and aesthetics are generally considered distinct branches of philosophy. Long-winded, self-righteous diatribes are rarely beautiful. -D |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Ah -- a new voice -- great! The point is to get different opinions, no?
Of course, the spelling of "limic" was deliberate just to see if any one was actually reading these books. You saying "you no nothing" is a great pun, methinks on the word "know." The "Argument" is not about what causes magic, but how the perception of magic as a cause comes about. For someone to say that "critical thinking" (deliberate and conscious) accounts for that "aha" experience is to reduce the the art to someone deciding it should be art (Dada?) rather than appreciating the aesthetics of the work. This is what Maskelye was saying -- do you disagree with his quotation? If the deconstruction process is autonomous, they why is not the construction process? -- i.e. the magic effect constructs itself. An interesting proposition -- "magic constructs itself." Of course, we only pretend at magic, so any theory might apply. What Critical Thinking should allow is consideration of every possible point of view. ............................................................................................ You say "How commensurable is this with my worldview?" Please explain how this is not an ethical question. My simple self would think that any question about how one's morals/values might or might not apply to a situation to be about ethics. To change ones worldview (or consider it) would always have an ethical impact for me.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
The Lawn Vanish In effect: The magician makes all the lawns in the world vanish with a magic argument. Method: The magician tells his audience that in truth lawns do not actually exist in reality as a lawn is merely an abstraction and what really exists in reality are individual blades of grass.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Donnie Loyal user 224 Posts |
Funsway,
For ethics to be dependant solely on a worldview plunges the whole deal into relativism. If you want to discuss the lineage of ethics and resultant problems let's do it it privately. Secondly, an audience is always thinking critically, especially with a magician. Consequently, when a contradictory event occurs it is all the more powerful. Lastly, deconstruction is not the opposite of construction. You are conflating deconstruction with destruction. Read Derrida's Of Grammatology before you start tossing around terms. -D |
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Donnie Loyal user 224 Posts |
Tommy,
We didn't climb a mountain to be blessed with an aphorism. So, save the pseudo-philosophical stuff. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Does the broad minded man live in the vale of illusion?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-16 11:11, Whit Haydn wrote: I am truly, truly sorry if I misread the following words from the "Working on Character" topic: Whit wrote: "Well, that is Pop's approach. The feeling I am looking for is to create a realistic experience with a totally fantastic character. The idea isn't to convince them of the reality of the experience, but to open a different sort of door. The magic is the foot that holds the door open in their memory. A more serious approach, nearing charlatanry, would be David Blaine. This has its attractions and limitations as well." I simply thought Pop was a light-hearted characterization.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-16 09:04, tommy wrote: I still love you, Tommy. You and Jon are at the top of my list of broad-minded/narrow fellows in the lawn/leaves of grass!
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Where does what you are hearing go when you start thinking to yourself?
Where does what you are seeing go when you imagine or recall how something looks?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
What I am hearing goes out of mind.
What I am seeing goes out of sight.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Both hearing and seeing are but illusions created in the mind from various external simuli, so there is no "go to" nor "come from" -- just a rerouting of neural pathways. Seeing has more a predictive quality about it than hearing, but both are based to some extent on what we expect to hear and see. Thus, what we think we see and hear never actually occured at all.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
If we permit that, in the universe of our current dialog, hearing and seeing are "but illusions" then imputing meaning becomes both mind reading and delusional. I suggest we use a more grounded set of givens.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I think that they think not for themselves but have their mind controlled by magic.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-23 14:20, tommy wrote: I think I lost focus after the second statement about thinking.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
Out of mind, out of sight?
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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