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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » Ball Vanish/Cups and Balls (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Kaliix
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I've been trying to develop my own cups and balls routine and I am wondering how certain vanishes will work on the street.

I do an excellent retention vanish and there is a great wand push through vanish that I learned of of Ammars Cups and Balls video #2. Both vanishes are angle proof enough for the streets. Since I am using two different vanishes, I want to use a third different one.

I am really like the wand spin vanish, but I am not sure how the angles would be for the street?

Williamson's strike vanish would also be another option but I am having trouble getting the knack of that one.

Any comments on using these two vanishes on the street or suggestions for any others?


p.s. As an aside, I just purchased the Gary Animal/Gazzo medium Animal cups. These cups are awesome/the bomb/fabulous. They are nice and hefty, stack well, can hold three balls easily in the attic, look great, and easily hold a baseball final load. Let it also be known that Gary Animal is an absolute pleasure to do business with. Gary understands what customer service is all about and went well above and beyond in making sure that my order was right. If you love good cups, consider the ones he sells.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
KingStardog
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The great thing about a vanish is nobody knows its coming until it happens.

The strike vanish is easy for a magician to spot, but not the average spec. Get a camcorder set up and practice until you have it down. Use your eyes to follow the wand as you do a couple of them and see how it looks on tape. The trick with using the eyes for misdirection is to follow the wand down but about 8-10 inches behind it. The dirty work will be done by the time the specs eyes see the wand resting on the hand.

Try it on tape and you will see what I mean. Your mis direction stare should be 1/2 to 1 second slower than what it feels like it should be.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
Kaliix
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Quote:
On 2003-08-20 13:34, KingStardog wrote:
The great thing about a vanish is nobody knows its coming until it happens.


Yeah, that's mostly true. Most cups and balls routines I've seen start with the vanish of three balls in a row. I'm thinking of retention vanish, wand push through vanish then ?

By that time, they know the vanish is coming.

I'll have to try your tips on the strike vanish though.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
Pete Biro
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Three in a row...

1: French drop (don't count this out for laymen)
2: Retention (although I use NO. 1 twice, it fits)
3: Wand Spin, Strike or Push Through... whichever you do best.

KISS Keep It Simple Sir.
Smile
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Frank Tougas
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If you have a really solid vanish there is no reason to alter it throughout the routine. I do a version of Al Schneider's Cup & Ball Routine. You can see it on his website.

He has developed a retention vanish he calls the Schneider Basic Vanish and it is used throughout his routine. He has never been caught since it doesn't look like a tricky vanish. Come to think of it, I've never been caught at it either.

He explains this vanish in a back issue of Genii magazine, demos the routine on his web site and will teach it on a video and dvd set slated to appear from L&L sometime after the first of the year.
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
BroDavid
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Frank,

Where did you learn the Al Schneider vanish? Is there already a video, or was it from a book or notes?

Thanks

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
JamesinLA
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Kallix,
Thanks for posting such a great question. I usually use a "take" vanish that I guess is a modified French drop. However, I also use the wand spin vanish. I have worked on this quite a while in order to get it angle proof. When I don't feel "on" a certain day for an angle proof wand spin, I do a push through vanish.

I also wanted to ask, what do people think of the difference between a "put" versus a "take" vanish?

Thanks.
Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
Kaliix
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Frank - I was watching Cellini's Cups and Balls routine and he does three retention vanishes to start his routine. To me that is too repetitive. I know I do a great retention vanish but I think repeating three times is overkill. I also think that better patter lines can be derived from the sequence of three different vanishes in a row.

James - To me a good retention vanish beats a good French Drop. Somehow I think seeing that ball go into the hand is better than seeing the ball being taken by a hand. Maybe it's because in a French Drop, we last see the ball in the hand that it is taken from, as the taking hand covers the ball. I think "SEEING" the ball leave on hand and go "INTO" the other hand is psychology more powerful. IMHO Smile
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
JamesinLA
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The only retention vanish I know is with a coin. Where can I learn the retention vanish with a 1 1/4 inch ball? I guess I do know a retention vanish with sponge balls. Is that the same move?
Thanks,
Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
Kaliix
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While I am sure that magicians have developed 100's of variations on the retention vanish Smile the basic premise is the same for a coin, sponge ball or ball ball.

I personally use pretty much the same move for sponges and balls, the only significant difference is that I actually drop the ball into my hand versus placing it. I think the drop motion is an added convincer.

If you own any basic magic text, I fairly certain a retention vanish is explained in one of them.



Quote:
On 2003-08-21 05:14, JamesinLA wrote:
The only retention vanish I know is with a coin. Where can I learn the retention vanish with a 1 1/4 inch ball? I guess I do know a retention vanish with sponge balls. Is that the same move?
Thanks,
Jim
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
what
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Quote:
On 2003-08-20 21:50, Kaliix wrote:
Frank - I was watching Cellini's Cups and Balls routine and he does three retention vanishes to start his routine. To me that is to repetitive.


I recall an article on Richard Robinsons allmagic.com web site last year in which he suggested that using the same vanish throughout a routine (or segment) is actually stronger than altering it because it conditions the audience to understand that the ball is about to vanish.
What do you all think of this theory?

Mike
Magic is fun!!!
Kozmo
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Lay audiences don't understand how a retention vanish works, so you can do it 3 times. Actually Cellini also uses a French Drop usually.

The wand vanish is anglely, not that great on the streets. Pete is right, keep it simple...really simple....they don't know.


We as magicians struggle with thinking like magicians. It's better to try to look at things as a layman would.

koz
Frank Tougas
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(BroDavid), I am fortunate enough to have known Al Schneider for over thirty years. Naturally he taught it to me. It has been published several times by Al and by others. PM me with a way to snail mail you and I'll send you some info that may help.

(what), I agree. I think using the same vanish does condition an audience but I don't feel it sets them up for a vanish, I think it may have the opposite effect, it becomes a natural flow of the routine.

It is a great vanish because each time the spectator is sure he or she has seen the ball go into that hand only to have it appear under the cup. What I've found is that the interest in the vanish diminishes and moves to the appearance. Almost as though they have given up on how the ball vanishes, as it appears to be a given that it will, but how the heck does he get it to go into that cup?

I have never been a fan of the Twirl Vanish with the wand.(With apologies to Dai Vernon). It is a showy bit of juggling but anyone watching knows the magician did something. They are not sure what it was you did, but you did something!

I'm sorry, but thinking I did SOMETHING just ain't magic in my book. Wasn't it Vernon himself that said, "Confusion isn't magic" ?
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
KingStardog
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Kozmo's right, they don't know whats going on. If you feel a little off, misdirect. Ammar does a great job on one of the WGM(?) shows when he loads the third ball on top of the cup in plain sight of everyone, yet none of the 10-15 spectators saw a thing.

He could have thrown a 5 pound ham on the table and got away with it. Probably could have vanished the cup in that narrow slice of time.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
Kaliix
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I agree that confusion isn't magic. I've always been a big fan of the wand spin vanish. I think it looks beautiful and I never got the feeling like the magician did "something". Hey I could be wrong though, that's just me.

Maybe I shouldn't make the vanishes harder than they have to be. I think my retention vanish is excellent so I would mind that being the only vanish I use.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
BrendanK
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Can't say much about the angles of the wand spin, cause I haven't got the knack of it, BUT check out performance and explanations from the late MIKE ROGERS on Stevens Cups'n'balls video, even when he puts aside the wand and just shows the hand falling in front of the one with the ball, I never got the feeling that he had done "something" - the move, from camera viewpoint anyway, was invisible - and he then goes on to clarify this by demoing the move with the actual baseball final load!!!

I could watch it all night - sad or what!

cheers
Brendan Smile
waveman
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What about a spider vanish? Smile
RobertBloor
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Great question(s).

Quote:
Kallix: I know I do a great retention vanish but I think repeating three times is overkill.


One thing about a retention vanish is that it is very pleasing to the eye. Gazzo even makes mention of this in his video.
If all you're doing is three retentions then it may be too repetative.
Try breaking it up. Gazzo does great by play with the audience from doing a fake vanish and then actually retaining to 'blowing' on the third ball to make it vanish.

I'd say instead of trying to figure out the right 'magic' move to put in a routine, think about how you can accomplish the move with by play on the audience.

Quote:
Mike: is actually stronger than altering it because it conditions the audience to understand that the ball is about to vanish.
What do you all think of this theory?


There may be some truth to that. My feeling is that wand vanishes and spins and such look 'too skilled.' By using a more simple approach and playing down your skill, it'll be more convincing to the audience. We're talking lay people so the more simple the better.

Quote:
kozmo: We as magicians struggle with thinking like magicians. It's better to try to look at things as a layman would.


All hail Kozmo! He's right. Think like a lay person.
BTW Koz, how successful have you been performing Gazzo's act? Smile

Quote:
KSDog: Ammar does a great job on one of the WGM(?) shows when he loads the third ball on top of the cup in plain sight of everyone, yet none of the 10-15 spectators saw a thing.


The first time I saw the Ammar Opening I fell out of my chair. Literally.
When I replayed the tape I was so hacked at how simple it was. But that move - it takes some brass.

Quote:
Kallix: Maybe I shouldn't make the vanishes harder than they have to be. I think my retention vanish is excellent so I would mind that being the only vanish I use.


And that's the rule of thumb in street magic...Simple.
You're already going to be in an uphill battle against many other variables. People. Weather. Other performers. Etc etc. Make it easy.

Ask yourself this...
Can the effect be communicated in a more simple manner? If so, do it.

Robert Bloor
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence
RiffRaff
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If you perform the same move each time, the audience is more likely to reason that this is a natural motion for you.

If you perform a different move for each vanish, the audience will suspect that you are doing something sneaky.

Although I don't believe one move is better than another, you must decide which move is consistent with YOU.

Let's say you're sitting at a dinner table and someone asks you to pass the salt. How many different maneuvers would you go through to pass the salt to the other person. Do you think the person cares HOW you pass the salt.

This is a good question to ponder. So don't just take my advice, as I've never been complimented on the way that I handle shakers (which is the way I like it). In other words take this advice with a grain of...
John Cass
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The main thing on any move is that it must look natural and it must look like you are doing what you are claiming to do. When you claim you are putting a ball into your hand, it must look like you are putting a ball into your hand.

So practice doing the move you are supposed to be doing first. Then learn the sleight.
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