I just bought some bags for my doves and there about 3 monthes old now. I know I started late in training them but when I try to place them in there bag they struggle so much I feel I am hurting them. will this end in time, after I have them in bags for 15 minutes every day. it seems to get a little better each day but I am just wondering if I was doing something wrong....

any help?

thanks.

DJ, the first few times you put the birds in the bags, they will struggle. It's stange to them and they will be scared. You have to be sure you have them fully trained before putting them in the bags anyway. They must feel safe and secure. Try getting them to sit in the palm of your hand for awhile. The position is the same as when they are in the bag. When you close the bag around them, it should hold the feathers down but not squeeze the bird. If it does, then the bag is too small.

Dj,
It sounds like you're doing things the right way. Good. Accustoming the birds to the harness takes some time but it's well-worth it.They will fight at first but just give it some time...As Mr.Scribner says,being 3mo.old, it's a good time to begin training/taming them;if you have not begun to do so already.I like using the techniques Clark shows on his vids even if I don't want to the bird to do the return flight in the routine...It's a good way to get them accustomed to your hands... What type of dove bag are you using anyway???

I don't know what kind of bag it is but I bought them at Tannens and they are a snap fastener type bag.
Should I have the legs back when there in the bag

DJ, there are many different types of bags on the market so it's difficult to know exactly what you bought. To answer your question, IMO, the legs should be under the bird not bent backwards. If you ever see Gen Grant load his birds, he sets the bag on the table and puts the bird in the center. The bag is closed around it. The dove will naturally sit, drawing the legs up and this is the way I do the loads. If you bend the legs back, they can't do that. The legs will bend back but the toes get cramped. This can be uncomfortable for them. It's hard to believe but in all the books and videos I've seen, I don't remember any of them mentioning actually how handle the legs.
Dave Womach may have some additional guidance for you on this.

Yeah ummmmmm.....folding the legs back is NOT good for the birds. That is not a natural position for them to be in and yes they come out flapping their wings but they do that anyway if you load them normally. There is no difference. You sound like you're doing everything fine. I don't remember who ever came up with folding the legs back...was it Spina? I forget, but just think about the birds and if you think it may hurt them or be uncomfortable...then don't do it! You may be right in your assumption and its not worth the risk.
Ta'

Sperris

OK, I tried to put them in the bag with there legs underneath them about 10 minutes ago. Do I need to press them down a little so there legs go towards there body? Do I need to push the legs forward? What do I do? All I know is when I place them on the bag and try to close it, it won't because there standing up.

sorry to ask all these question again.

thanks in advance guys.

Push???no. Lay the bag either on a table or in your hand. Place the dove in the center of the bag and close it gently around the bird. At first, use just a little downward pressure to make the bird sit. If really have to push the bird down, then the bag is too small. You need the dove to be comfortable. The bag should just hold the wings to the body and give you something to load in the coat. That's the major reason I don't like bags with snaps. They're not adjustable. If the bag seems big enough, try holding the dove in your hand with the bag open to get the bird used to the feel. Then gradually close the bag. Are you sure you have the birds trained at this point? If not, you will have a tough time with them, especially after you open the bag.

As Mr. Scribner says, "Be careful with the Birdies!" If you're considering pushing them down because the bag won't close, then the bag must be too small!!! Consider using another bag. I had this problem with a harness I bought once...I simply bought some material and took the harness to a tailor lady(not sure what the proper name is) and had her make duplicates in a larger size...Just a thought...

DJ, don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like you have not spent enough time training your birds. You can't just pick them up after a few hours and put them in a bag. They absolutely have to trust you. they should almost automatically sit down for you. Look at your birds in the Café while they are perching. You won't see them standing straight up but rather just relaxed over their feet. That is the position you need when they are in the bag. You can only accomplish that after many hours of handling and training. Even if you get them into the bag, they are most likely going to take wing and fly away when produced and you don't want that. Training is not just tossing them from hand to hand. Many nights I sit with my birds on my hand or shoulder while watching TV just to get them comfortable. While holding them, don't forget to stroke them from head to tail so they feel safe.

I have just got a doves to rabbit prduction, but i need to produce the doves, what dove bag ca you reccommend. as anyone tried one hand dove bag by bazar magic,

the one handed bag by bazarr d' magique or whatever their company is called is a ****py rip off of Shimada's holder. The best holder out there that I recommend for one handed release is Andy Amyx's one handed release holder: http://www.andyamyx.com. Its easey to find the release and the bag just opens right up in your hand...its sooooooo sweet! Highly highly recommend it!!! Check it out...

Sperris

I've haven't seen Andy's one hand bag but Tony Clark's doesn't even have a release. You just pull out the bag and it opens. Amos Levkovitch uses a similar system without a release. I'd recommend either of those.

The Tony Clark bags are awesome! Check out his videos too it goes over loading. Andy's bags uses a one hand release that is ok but I think the one on Tony's is better cause there is nothing to look for. Make sure if you order one to specify...he has two kinds of holders.

...Just messing around with some dove holder ideas and came up with this release. Dave, I was wondering if you've ever seen it before: I cut a piece of fantasion vanishing candle and reversed the coil on it and gaffers taped it into a holder. So when you release the dove the plastic coils away from the dove and opens the holder for you. It like wraps the holder away and under the dove totally opeing the whole holder so the dove can crawl out. I've tried it and it looks so killer, the dove it like there and flapping, no fumbling or anything. It is similar to Myphesto's holder, but it basically turns the holder inside out so the dove is automatically free to crawl out. I've known that Dimmare uses something similar for his double doves...but then agian Dimmare told me he doesn't use loops, so who really knows. But if it is effective enough and works I'll have it on the market very soon. Any input anyone has as to the history, if there is any, on the release is appreciated. I would want to give credit to where it is due. I really believe in researching magic and knowing the history and giving credit to people before me who have helped make and create what is around today.

Sperris

http://www.dansperry.com
http://www.extremedovemagic.com

Dan, I have that dove holder from Mephisto Huis when I was in Belgium way back 1983. There are plastic hinges which are release by a nylon which pins inside the dove holder. I never used it though. It could be great for use in a double dove production. I think Lance Burton uses one in his candle to dove production.

Dan, I don't know if your idea is like any others out there but is seems awesome. I'm trying to picture it in my head while I'm at work and it seems to be worth investigating. I might just have to try it when I get home but it seems logical and effective to me.

Sounds like the Tannen's Ultimatic dove holder. That holder uses sorta like the same principle. It requires a small squeeze of a spring bar "like the fantasio" and it opens enough to release the bird.

It does not turn the bag inside out though.

By the way Zicarte came up with the use of hinges and pins on a dove holder aka Tony Clark bag. He got ripped off by magicians and never given credit for the concept.

G0THIKE

Yeah I've been out in my garage working on the holder, it looks friggin' SWEEEET!!! I have several of Myphesto's holders, and this isn't like that one, this like actually turns the holder inside out so the dove like almost pops out flapping its wings. It looks just beautiful! Right now the release I fixed on it is similar to General Grants with a hood and eye, but the tab is a big one I quickly cut out of a plastic water jug. Since it sounds so far like nobody has one like this I think I'm gonna call it the "freaky deaky dove holder". Its got a nice ring to it, heh heh

Sperris

http://www.dansperry.com
http://www.extremedovemagic.com

Sounds Freaky to me. Go for it.