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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts 
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The problem here is this...
What price talent? For you it might be one price but come a long Jeff McBride, with much less props, and he commands twenty times more pay than you... Could he argue that you are undercutting him with your cheaper Show? What I mean, to the OP, how do you justify this price logic? The problem is most Magicians don't stand out, thus a Magician is a Magician is a Magician... You get my point? Why get the expensive one if they're all THE SAME? You have to stand out... Become popular for your Show... Lots of singers sing better than her, but Britney Spears would still be paid millions compared to a total newcomer. No matter how good. And Britney will still be the choice as she has the star power... (I don't like her all that much really...) I say this, do your best to show you're worth it, leave others to their own "vices"... 
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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magicelam Veteran user Tennessee 368 Posts
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Now with that info I'd be ****ed too... I think it's true that we all pretty much know the "going rate" in our area (regardless of what we charge)... Of course, there are a couple of guys in my area that do bday parties for $50... Haha. Try competing with them
Mike
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Kevin Ridgeway V.I.P. Indianapolis, IN & Phoenix, AZ 1832 Posts
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Just for the record magicelam, $550 is NOT the going rate for fairs anywhere in the country. Maybe for festivals(asparagus fest, covered bridge festival, etc)...but NOT for county & state fairs. Even strolling acts, like jugglers charge more than that.
Living Illusions
Ridgeway & Johnson Entertainment Inc Kevin Ridgeway & Kristen Johnson aka Lady Houdini The World's Premier Female Escape Artist www.LadyHoudini.com www.livingillusions.com |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-07-09 11:43, Living Illusions wrote: Sure, I am a Professional as well. I can relate to "the going rate"... But here is the issue in the real world, there will always be people who will do it for less. Much less even... Desperate or just newcomers (or desperate newcomers).
Then there are the established Popular Artistes who will command ten times "the going rate" at the same venue easily... This is just the nature of the beast, I imagine anywhere in the civilized world, when it comes to Showbiz rates... I say, do your very best to go up the bracket and become irreplaceable by just any other performer, let the newbies fight for the scraps. Be the Popular Artiste. I know it's NOT easy, but what is when it comes to getting and staying at the top with the big guns? Just my thoughts on this... Do as you will.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts
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In the end it basically comes down to free market where anyone can charge anything they want. We have magicians selling routines for as high as $800, and as low as $5.00. There doesn't seem to be any fixed pricing when it comes to selling routines or effects, and I have never heard of any fixed price for magicians who perform.
However, it is always smart business practice to find out what others in the area are charging. If someone is new, it's not unusual for them to do free shows, or charge little. They need to make a name for themselves, and build a reputation before thinking they can run with the big dogs in the yard. I'm still a small dog, and my prices reflect that. When I gain more experience, and envolve more as an entertainer, I will likely charge more.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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magicelam Veteran user Tennessee 368 Posts
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Hey Kevin, you guys know much more about that than me, I don't work fairs and festivals. I hate performing outside, haha, so I'd be hard pressed to even do it for the 1500 a day
Mike
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts
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I wonder if the under cutter is has paid proper liscensee and fees for the ideas he is using. It is easy to undercut when you have little invested. In capitalism we reward people for their work and ideas. If this person is just working the system, let's hope they are doing it ethically and are paying for the work of others they may be using.
Perhaps builders and shops should stop selling to known undercutters. Many professions require licensing to purchase equipment or obtain support services. Perhaps we should be more restrictive with our resources and fewer problems like this might occur. Just a thought. |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-07-11 18:23, truthteller wrote: That there is the problem. Imho...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts
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I should add that I take love offerings for my Gospel magic programs, and I have only recently been doing regular childrens magic.
When I decided on a rate to charge, I looked into what others locally were charging. I do not charge the same rate as someone who has been doing it for years. Perhaps I am mixed up in this. Should I be charging the same price as other magicians in my area that are more experienced and talented than I am right now? I'm posing this question to find out opinions from others. I surely do not want to be labelled as someone who undercuts maliciously or anything like that.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3017 Posts
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I think one key to this is to manage your pricing and always assume your clients talk to each other. If I came into town as a newbie and charged $200 for a show to get my name out there and build a little business, so be it. But if things pick up quickly and I suddenly decide to start charging $1000 for the same show, simply because I can, it's not going to look good if my $1000 client finds out that two weeks earlier I was only charging 20% of what she just paid.
I would say that the more we put into our act, the more we should be getting out of it. If I'm doing 45 minute sets with a deck of cards and I'm working in the same market as Juan Tamariz, I would HOPE he's making a lot more money than I am, because when I've put in the time and effort and reached his level, I don't want to be making the same amount as the newbie just because we're kind of doing the same thing. I would say patience and a gradual increase in price would be what's best for the performer, as well as the other performers in his market.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2394 Posts
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You bring up an interesting point, Andrew. So, wouldn’t Juan Tamariz feel like you’re ‘undercutting’ him? Wouldn’t Juan feel outraged that you’re screwing up the business? I don’t think so.
I guess what I’m saying is there is room in this world for different price levels. If you are being undercut, chances are you have not reached the status of a Juan Tamariz, and your act has not become unique enough as was pointed out earlier in this thread. Instead of getting upset at the undercutter, look at yourself and ask why you cannot command the price level you are seeking. Its easier just to say the other guy is cheap, unethical and stupid. Our ego successfully remains intact.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-07-06 22:25, w_s_anderson wrote: Going back to what I originally said, it seems the actual problem here was event planners trying to find the lowest bidder. As the OP was written, I can not find anything that indicates magician #2 even knew what the first guy had quoted, much less what "market rate" was in an out-of-town market. It seems clear someone was "shopping around" for the lowest price. Happening a lot these days, and it looks to get worse...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3017 Posts
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Agree 100%, Ken!
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts
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Good points, Ken!
If fishing is frustrating because kids are throwing rocks in the lake, get yourself to a spot that the kids can't reach.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-07-12 06:57, Ken Northridge wrote: You are assuming that my friend can't command the price that he is seeking. He does, and he is booked all the time. He was given a price quote and was going to be booked. The illusionist gave is original quote, which was still less than my friends, and was not booked. When the unknown illusionist found out he wasn't going to be booked he dropped his drawers and offered them a whopping 160 bucks a show. Also, as the world turns, I find out that this guy is a lot more local than I had imagined and he is performing a full stage illusion show. Not many newbies are performing full illusion shows. On a side note, what does this have to do with ego? How do you connect being undercut to having an ego? |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2394 Posts
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The situation you’ve described is an extreme case. As has been noted on this thread, undercutting goes on all the time. I was addressing the situation on a broader sense.
Still, if the original illusionist were David Copperfield, would the undercutter have gotten the gig? Like it or not, the original illusionist did not successfully convince management that he was worthy of the price he was asking. As Gospel Dan pointed out, undercutting goes on all the time in other industries. I’m not sure its even unethical. As far as what does ego have to do with this, I thought I explained that pretty well in my last post. Again, I’m not directing this at this particular situation. In fact, let me get personal with a situation that recently happened to me. I was recently accused on Facebook of undercutting and stealing clients. He didn’t name me by name (good thing) but by the way he worded it most people could figure it was me he was talking about. Of the two clients that he must have been talking about one has been my client for 35 years! And I’ve performed a show for them at least once a year for the past 15 years. How is that HIS client? The other client was so impressed by this magician they went out searching for other magicians and got my name through a google search and actually came to see one of my shows before the hired me. As far as being cheaper, I guess I could be since I have no idea what he is charging. But consider this, I’ve been a full time professional for 12 years, raised 5 children and live relatively debt free from this income. In other words, I run a successful business and it has stood the test of time. My prices may not be the highest, but they do bring me a lot of work. And, oh yes, I get hired back! Sometimes for 35 years! So, one can protect their ego by claiming the competition is cheap and unethical. If one were to admit that their previous clients were not happy with what they got for their money it might force them to look at their own business practices.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Aaron Smith Magic Inner circle Portland, OR 1447 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-07-14 07:30, Ken Northridge wrote: And you say that Scott's friend has an ego? |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts
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Part of the problem is that a show could be offered for 'less' for a lot of differing reasons. As has been said above we have ALL been undercut at one point or another. It just happens. You look for ways to adjust. You offer more value in some way that makes the buyer want to spend the extra money. You work in such a manner that they HAVE to have you because of your reputation and they don't care about the extra money.
It can be done. I have a friend who is a superlative stand up and close-up magic entertainer. Totally part time. Been doing it part time for 35 years or so. He'll average at least 30 shows a year and the last time I talked to him his price for a 30 minute show was $1000.00 and he got it and never ever varied from the price. BUT...he worked it so that he could turn down work until all he got was his asking price, etc. It helped that his ability to send possible clients to past clients for a recommendation was incredibly strong, etc. So much has to be taken into account. Do you HAVE to do magic or starve? Then you have to make decisions based on that need and that's ok, it's the way it is. It's not a matter of liking it or not liking it. If you expend too much energy being ****ed about it that's energy you could be using to figure out how to obviate the problem posed, etc. Sucks. I HATE and LOVE competition. When competition is gone so will be our freedom to compete. In the end it should drive us to read and study more about basic marketing, influence, etc. How do WE get what we want and need in a market made up of a ton of other people with similar wants and needs? Best regards,
Brad Burt
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » On the topic of ethics, here is another issue. Your thoughts ... (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jul 9, 2011 05:13 am 
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