Visit the "Tricky Business" forum here on the Café. That's all we talk about there. A wealth of information for sure.

Paul;

I like Matt's website, it's very good

Bob is absolutely on it when he says to quit the day-job.

A lot of people think they are motivated to make it as a full time pro and use the day job as a way of financing things while they get things going. Believe me, when you have NO other option but to bring in gigs you find a new reservoir of motivation to fill up that diary.

That's it really...

Hey! Thank you Dreadnought, Iain and Smoking Camel. I wondered why there was suddenly a flurry of interest in the book! SC - The hardback edition - all gone. But the eBook is alive and kicking. Details are at: http://moneyfrommagic.wordpress.com/

One of the first steps is to begin to think like a professional. $80 for a professional resource is cheap. If you can't stomach that, you might want to reconsider. You must invest in your career. It is a business and like any other business you must invest in it and in yourself.

Bobs advice is the best. Start charging, then quit the day job. That is fairly much how it happened for me. A magician was double booked, so he asked me to fill in. That was my first gig, and I was paid for it. Nine months later I handed in my notice. Fourteen years later, no regrets.

I attended a Dan Harlan lecture a couple of years ago in Cincinnati, and he had some great insights into putting together a show. His lecture notes are here: http://danharlanmagic.com/More-Than-Meet......load.htm

Also, I know people are telling you to quit your day job, which will make you fully motivated to succeed, but Dan Harlan recommended saving a year's worth of cash before embarking on being a full-time performer. Others have said do not go full-time until you are so busy that you have to.

Boris Wild once told me that the minute you become a full-time professional, you have to market yourself every single day, and you need to continually create products to release to keep your name out there. It would also be nice if you had enough experience and original effects that you could lecture to the magic clubs.

Richard Osterlind found a wonderful manager with whom to work, and it has been a successful partnership. Once you become a professional, get ready for the travel. It is unlikely the area where you live will be able to support you completely.

I am not sure if it was Joshua Jay or Richard Osterlind who said once you command a nice fee, $1,000-$5,000, when things get slow, you can't be doing those birthday shows for $250-$500.

I wish you well,

Bobby

I know that asking what people charge is not a popular subject, but it would be helpful for some of us who are starting to take on paid gigs as mentalists if some of you veterans would let us know about (ballpark) what we should charge. Understanding that different markets in the US will vary, but we don't want to undercut other working professionals either. For someone new to paid gigs but with some experience performing, good material, a nice web site, and some decent promotional materials, what should we be looking to charge, for typical kinds of engagements?

New,

Charge what you are worth, not what you think you are worth...but really evaluate yourself and what you have to offer your audience. If you undercut another worker, well...thats business and this is showbusiness.

With that said, if you undercut someones price and do a poor mans show then you have not only undercut that performer but also showed a paying customer that he or she made a bad choice choosing a mentalist.

I think its more damaging to do a bad show then doing a good show cheaper then the next guy, just my opinion.

respect,
Billy

Billy,
I have to argue that statement about business. In the economics of business in established markets and a new comer entering that market with a lower price to gain market share, the kinked curve model will be followed. Basically, you are forcing down the price of established product or service and in the end force others to lower their price meaning everyone will be making less in return.

Now some may argue that if you are in San Francisco how are you affecting anyone else since the world is so large. The wold is large but your local market is not and you are only hurting yourself.

I have had this argument with many and for some reason and especially magicians they don't understand the connection and in the end they are charging 100$ for a 60 minute show in a major city for minimum 20 people.

How on earth do you expect you will be valued if you charge peunts for your service people pay more for a movie and popcorn, a band, food catering services, etc...Yet they are all use for the same final result. Are you any less important than those other components of the evenings entertainment?

I argue no you are not in fact many new magician/mentalist offer to do a set of walk around with the final big show or just the walk around Part! DamMIT you are more important of this is the case you have become the host of the party and represent them! Charge more for this, one person who doesn't know hospitality management shouldn't be doing this work anyways because if they screw up because of poor social skills they ruin it for others!

I'm frustrated by seeing magicians who don't know how to work a deal and how to demonstrate value to the service provided so they drop their pants just to get a gig
Sorry for the rant, I just get irked when what I read makes it seems others don't seem to value their own work that they convey the image that if they don't value it why should the buyer!

Billy btw he only part targeted for you was the kinked curve model

WDavis,

I was a business major in school (many years ago), so I understand what you are saying. However, if you use lower prices to break into the market and then increase the cost once you have been established, all ends well.

I have found, running successfull businesses, that the numbers don't always tell the tale. Sometimes you have to scrap to get into a niche, once you are proven then more money and oppurtunity will come in time.

My point, don't be as concerned about undercutting another performer to get a foot in the door. I have not and will not undercut anyone with intention of hurting thier livleyhood, yet if concerns of pay are the thing holding you back from entering showbusiness...well, that should be low on the priority list.

Respect,
Billy

Billy,
I understand your point as well as increasing prices once established works but the flaw in the situation is unfortunately that many magicians won't out of fear of not getting customers or losing sale. Now if their service was a tangible good being exchanged your augment will hold true and I will cite hyundai and samsung as examples of success with tangible goods. Intangibles on the otherhand such as magic, this argument doesn't work. Let's use another service industry banking, Wamu failed because they undercutted fees ( resulting in little to none of fee income) and lowered credit standards to get a sale (resulting in bad assets on their books).
I advocate that if you want to go professional develope a professional attitude. Many Lawyers will work pro Bono or start at the bottom of a firm to develop sufficient experience before considering opening their own practice.

Magicians should do the same and develop experience Pro Bono instead of just trying to get a gig by under cutting others because the number of performing magicians mentalists in your market is finite and you will lower your markets going price. Once established with a quality pitchbook, testimonials, and show then they should enter the market for money.

Walter

WDavis,

I don't disagree with you at all. In fact, I full heartedly agree with you. I guess my original point was, don't worry about undercutting other performers if you do not know what they get paid.

I recall being worried about how much other performers where getting paid and possibly undercutting them, this was a crutch.

Like I said in my last post, it has and will never be my intention to undercut someone; yet the fear of doing it should not be what is holding you back from working as a pro.

Know what you are worth and make them pay......Your a firework

Respect,
Billy