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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-18 01:09, Andrew Zuber wrote: Andrew, I sympathize with your job search. If you look at another thread I started you can read some of what my wife is going through. I say this to let you know that I am not deaf to what you are saying. The reasons that you cannot find a job however, have nothing to do with immigration law. The true reasons can be found through a study of history, yes even history that goes back 300 years. Going back in time helps us to see patterns of behaviors by people and empires. Despite Henry Ford's supposed claim that "History is Bunk," there's a reason to study it. It's important to understand how things evolve and to perceive the latest incarnations of old themes. Ignoring history is like saying, to be crass, that we have nothing to learn from Vernon in a Criss Angel world.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
[quote]On 2011-07-17 22:24, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
Yes my thoughts about immigration have changed over the last year; I now believe in a much more open immigration policy coupled with 1)an end to free trade agreements, 2) the end to the support of union busting at home and abroad, 3) the end to the bombing of foreign countries, and 4) the end to The (Ridiculous) War on Drugs. That is an indivisible policy, and the only one that makes sense to me. Piecemeal solutions are going to be a hodge podge of unjust and incoherent policies as they are now. Following up on the RIGHTS question here probably is not productive--as you say that is a matter of political philosophy and there's not much that can be changed given the power structures that exist. However, I think it's important to say two things about that: 1) The issue of immigration is particularly sensitive to irony in the way that other laws are not, as the founders of the US were unwelcome immigrants to a place where people already lived, and the question of land is at the very core of what constitutes a government; 2) One can well think that the US is an illegitimate state with illegal occupiers without getting on the next plane. I think the US government has been guilty of massive destruction but I choose (so far) to stay here. Friends, family, tradition, work are here for now. I didn't choose to grow up here, but I am here, for better or worse. The better I celebrate, the worse I try to change. But I must say that recently, with changing family obligations, I have thought seriously about leaving, in a way I never have before--I truly fear for the future of this country.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-18 01:09, Andrew Zuber wrote: Racist. (Insert smiley face here.)
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
[quote]On 2011-07-18 10:30, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-07-17 22:24, LobowolfXXX wrote: No one can NOT think we are an illegitimate state with illegal occupiers without getting on the next plane. That is hokum. Go away. Get out. If you hate it so much, (as you should any such state) then you are free to leave. If you truley believe it and you are SO certain we are all that and worse then get out. I would if I believed that and had the courage of my convictions. My question is where will that plane land? What state in modern society is not an illegal occupier? This should be good. I think Andrew summed it up nicely. As for your stance on immigration, well I hesitate to raise it to the level of a serious arguement by even talking about it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Heck England is in the same boat we are!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
The Celts are thought to have taken Ireland by Invasion long before the English did it to them too.
I hope we've all evolved a bit since the days of conquering raiders and crusades.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
OH no!!!! According to the theory that these guys put forth, well we have to give back the country to those who were there FIRST!
So back to midevil times!!!!!!! Or before I guess.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
[quote]On 2011-07-18 10:30, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-07-17 22:24, LobowolfXXX wrote: :thumbsup: If you are questioning this much, then why not ask what gives government any right to claim ownership over any land mass in the first place?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-18 11:37, gdw wrote: And if you're questioning that, then why not ask what gives any individual a right to claim ownership over any land mass in the first place?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-18 11:40, LobowolfXXX wrote: :thumbsup:
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Lobo, Critter, ABSOLUTELY, I agree. I don't think that is touched on enough.
What gives anyone to claim ownership over any "property?" If an individual does have that right, then what gives the "right" to a group of individuals calling themselves "government" to make any claims on the individuals property?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
Oh I was just thumbuping Lobo's nice use of Socratic arguement (I think that's what it was). I have no poodle in this picnic.
Just here to enjoy the show and occasionally heckle.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-18 11:52, gdw wrote: Dude, in order for people to live in a society, things like this must be done. Now you do not have to participate in society if you do not want to. Options include simply leaving and living in the jungle, or the mountians or what not. You rise and sleep under the very blanket of security that a society provides, then you do not want to admit that the blanket is necessary. If society was run in the way which you so crave, it would not be at all social. It would be bands of armed thugs running things. (Well not too much different from now I guess. LOL.) But seriously. There is just no way 350 million people can live together without having some sort of "organized liberty". It is what it is. Yes there are imperfections in any system with that many interactions between people. The solution you propose is to throw out the baby with the bath water. You want to continue to complain and show things that are wrong, when they are the the exception as opposed to the rule.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote: I'm not aware of any. Perhaps there are. Doesn't make them any less illegitmate or illegal. There are however, in my opinion, countries that do better by their inhabitants. Hate to tell you, but USA is not #1, despite your chanting. And if you disagree with me, go back to China where they know how to treat disagreeable capitalists.
On 2011-07-18 10:52, Dannydoyle wrote: Quote:
I think Andrew summed it up nicely. He at least has the excuse of youth for thinking history is irrelevant. Though I am sure you keep a youthful bloom about you, I suspect you're old enough to know history matters. Quote:
As for your stance on immigration, well I hesitate to raise it to the level of a serious arguement by even talking about it. I hate to tax you (no wait, I want to tax you, just not in that way) but perhaps you'll actually point to something in my statement about immigration that you disagree with and explain your reasons for that.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I wouldn't say ALL history is irrelevant. I fully recognize what happened then, and that's fine. What I AM saying is that what's happening NOW is different. You can't deny that this country is a far different place than it was 300 years ago. Do I recognize how our country was founded? Yes. Do I appreciate that history? Absolutely. American history was one of my favorite subjects growing up (you can call me youthful but I don't feel it these days, seeing as I'm 29 going on about 50...thanks for the jab though. I'll try and cut down on the naivety.)
The answer to many of our problems, and I can't stress this enough, is NOT to just open our doors and let the world in. We have too many people and not enough resources as it is. You can't tell me that my job search would be EASIER if we just tore our borders down and put up a welcome sign. The state of affairs here is VASTLY different than it was a few centuries ago. If we treat our country like it has a population in the thousands rather than hundreds of million, we're in bigger trouble than I thought. I'm fully aware that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. It doesn't take a genius to figure out, however, that if you spend all your time looking in the rearview mirror, you're going to slam into a wall sooner or later and it's not gonna be pretty. My 92-year old grandmother lives in a world where she's shocked that the city picks garbage up on a Monday because it means people have to put their cans out on Sunday evenings. She can hardly fathom it. So imagine the ramifications of having one less day of garbage pick up, and what that would mean. Did it work where she lived 60 years ago? Sure. Is that relevant today? Nope. More people, more houses, more trash. Any way you cut it, being stuck in the past isn't going to fix that situation today at all. Landmark - I completely sympathize with your wife's situation. My mother was a school district superintendent for her entire career, and this fall my dad will beging his 50th year of teaching, so education is a subject very close to my heart and I can only imagine how difficult that must be. I would think that being in New York City, you would see even more than most that our country is too crowded. You literally have people living on top of each other in Manhattan because there's no space. I'm simply advocating that we figure out how to take care of everyone that's already here, rather than stretching our resources even further.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Danny, we were doing so well.
I was asking both questions hypothetically. We haven't even answered the first, establishing the right to claim property in the first place, and you are focusing on a presumed answer to the follow up. Let's first focus on what Lobo asked first.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Naw see I will not be led down some silly path one question at a time to prove some unprovable point one baby step at a time. No that is not how things work. Small concessions and then suddenly you are at "see we don't have the right to government over us". No Glenn, that is how children make point, not adults. Sorry.
Everything you ask is pointed to the whole non government thing. It really is. The problem Glenn, is there is no "there", there. I believe Lobo was being sarcastic, and you took him for serious. We have the "right" to claim property because of as I said "organized liberty". This is how a society functions in America. It is what it is. Your ideas and platitudes are just that. I know you have sincere beliefs and hold them dearly, but when put to the test they fail misurably. You can't even answer the basic questions of how it would be so much better your way. The ONLY difference is who is being corrupt and who is being exploited. It is what it is. Yea you can have all the theoretical arguements you care to and it won't make a speck of fly poop difference. You can delude yourself into thinking that you have THE WAY for things to be done. No problem. But again you have to live in reality. It is what it is. A = A and life moves along.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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NicholasD Inner circle 1458 Posts |
He sure does give us a lot of entertaining minutia, but I wonder if Chance actually has a solution to the illegal alien problem as it exists today.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Problem?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
You know. The problem of the illegal and immoral occupation of others lands that our illigitimate government has precipitated for the past 300 years or more. THAT problem. The one that is so morally reprehensible that the people who believe that tripe, stay here and continue the PROBLEM.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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