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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
For those of you who don't claim to use to psychology or psychic means, you may as well skip this...
but for those that do - I was just wondering how far you feel you should educate yourself (if at all) on the subjects you claim to use...sooner or later you will meet someone with more than a passing interest in the same topic...so... how far have you gone, or are planning on going? I was recently interested in aura-reading, so I bugged a few people on the subject and got a good reading list to work through...one of the authors (W.E. Butler) had some other interesting books on clairvoyance and telepathy, so I got those too (very interesting they are too)... one book I keep going back to, is my 1924 release from the Society of Psyhical Research...has some stunning and startling things in there that I never get bored of reading... or, do you feel its not needed at all when you perform?
I've asked to be banned
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Damon Reinbold Regular user 147 Posts |
It is DEFINETLY needed. The more you know or the more well-prepared you are, the more effective you are going to be. As example, you really need to know some NLP in order to talk authoritative in the subject. Body language etc. you know.
Even Bob Nelson went on to get a degree in psychology. the best, Damon
Damon Reinbold
<BR>2011 President, S.A.M. Assembly 71 <BR>2011 President, IBM Ring 90 |
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Lost in Thought Veteran user 343 Posts |
I feel as though you need to know everything possible, based on your premise. This has taken me in some very strange directions at times, and I've ended up learning a huge amount that I probably don't need.
This can, of course, mean that you know very little. For instance, it would be entirely possible to be an "intuitive", and for the character to have no idea how they know details about other people's lives. Clearly, there would be no advantage in this persona researching parapsychology, since they may be blissfully unaware of it's existence. I think it's a matter of conviction. Often you can "get away" with it, but if you don't really understand what you're talking about then I think it shows. One of my major irritations with magic performances is any script which involves factually inaccurate information - such as the probability of something getting larger the more attempts you have. I'm sure it may not matter, but it grates on me. I can only imagine that, were I an expert on memory, the same blind rage would occur whenever anyone mis-pronounced "mnemonics". Equally, if I were presenting a para-psychological experiment in remote viewing, I had better understand what "Associated Remote Viewing" is all about, otherwise I'm clearly ignorant of the subject. This in turn, I believe, would strongly imply that I must be faking it. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
"And who can forget, Dr. Esp who invented the donut, the crucifix, the bacon, the cushion and the starfish cards..."
I've asked to be banned
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts |
I have read and studied both the subjects of psychology and various esoteric schools of thought. I craft my presentations as extensions of what I really believe (EXTENSION=EMBELLISHMENT/EXAGGERATION). I think it is silly and even a bit disrespectful to think that one can use presentational angles that one knows little about (Unless you are presenting a magic trick and are just telling a cute story).
Whatever your beliefs are, there are massive amounts of in-depth literature on things esoteric, and there are indeed people who are experts in these areas. If you don't believe in the remote possibility of these things, then use a psychological approach. If you don't believe in psychology then there's always the Scientological premise... Check out information on Project Stargate, Grill Flame, and other information on Remote Viewing if you haven't already. I Would also suggest (And I know Bob Cassidy does too) the works of Robert Anton Wilson (R.I.P). Also, certain strains of Jungian and Transpersonal Psychology offer excellent models of the Collective Unconscious and Synchronicity. In some ways, these can offer the best of both approaches (ESP vs PSYCH).
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I can whole-heartedly recommend the used and new function on amazon...found some amazing books on some very interesting subjects there...
I even got the berglas/lyon memory book off there for...well..can't remember how much...
I've asked to be banned
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Lost in Thought Veteran user 343 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-18 17:33, IAIN wrote: I've never wanted a custom printed set of ESP cards so much in my life. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Moo.com have got 30% off at the moment, I'm soooooooo tempted...
I've asked to be banned
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Shrubsole Inner circle Kent, England 2455 Posts |
"psychology" I have every chance of meeting someone who knows more than me.
"psychic" ??? What is there to know? It's made up rubbish. I could only meet someone who knew more about rubbish than I do and knew some more meaningless gobbledygook. It's sad when people try to club together a scientific study and a load of voodoo as see then as comparable. What next; World belief systems and quantum physics? I worry about this world in 2011 and that some haven't made it out of the dark ages.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
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MentalistCreationLab Inner circle 1528 Posts |
Personally I'm not even going to stop at quantum brain dynamics and electromagnetic theories of consciousness. However, I did find the following works of interest. For example, the works of Tart when he explores the ideas of altered states in the spiritual and meditative. Then there's Libet, one will have to read that for ones own curiosity, as that gets even farther down the rabbit hole. Then I started checking into the work of Dr. Geo. Owen and fell straight past Wonderland. Where I will end up who knows, but it is an interesting journey to say the least.
Dr. Charles T. Tart works Altered States of Consciousness (1969), Transpersonal Psychologies (1975) and Waking Up (1986) Dr. Benjamin Libet works The volitional brain: Towards a neuroscience of free will and Mind time and The temporal factor in consciousness, Perspectives in Cognitive Neuroscience as well as some of his other works are fascinating. Above are just a few works that point the way to the rabbit hole but one may find a large number of early works on psychology on Google Books for free, I personally like some of the works from the 1800s to about 1901 as some of these works contain the foundations of many of the modern applied theories of how the mind works and Iain as you already know many of these ideas can be exploited to create principals that can be applied to mentalism. |
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Lost in Thought Veteran user 343 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-18 18:19, Shrubsole wrote: Might I suggest that you may not, therefore, be suited to portraying a convincing psychic? (I'm sure you won't lose any sleep over that!) I wasn't referring to the validity of such claims, but I'd be surprised if frequent practitioners couldn't tell the difference between the "real" and the "phony". |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I have always stayed up to date with all parapsychological research. Contrary to what some people think, the field parapsychology is not populated by google-eyed "believers". Many parapsychologists, in fact, can be described as skeptics. (It is noteworthy that the Parapsychology Association is recognized by the American Academy of Science.)
I rarely get into discussions about current research in magic forums, because the bulk of the posters generally have no more knowledge of the subject than the average layman. Knowledge of what is really going on among serious researchers, however, has always been essential to the development of my persona and my ability to discuss the subject seriously with those who sincerely want to learn about it. Good thoughts, Bob |
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TimonK Veteran user Amsterdam 375 Posts |
I am a big fan of puristic mentalism and a hypnotist - therefor I like to think that I know a lot about what I claim to be using and what I'm using for real. I found that even if I'm not using 'psychology' ( to put it into a broad word ) for real people feel that I do since I know a lot about it and can talk about it. I don't have to make anything up as I just know what I'm talking about. A lot of the time however I actually do what I'm claiming to be doing.
Obviously I keep up to date with the hypnosis world a lot and keep educating myself about it to widen my knowledge. Sorry about the brief answer, I'm just about to get onto a plane. Best, Timon.
"But overcome space, and all we have left is Here. Overcome time, and all we have left is Now. And in the middle of Here and Now, don't you think that we might see each other once or twice?"
- Richard Bach, 'Jonathan Livingston Seagull' www.timonkrause.com |
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EldonFowler Regular user 110 Posts |
I am currently studying psycholgy in college, and doing the best in the year with test results of my exams at 98%. Yay! After college I am going to university to do a combined honours course in Counselling and Psychotherapy, then earn a PhD.
I use hypnosis in performances,and study NLP on my own from Bandler,Grinder and Erickson's works. When trying to create new patter for a mentalism effect,I find that just reading my psychlogy textbook can lead to really great patter involving the participant's free will, thought processes and reading minds through body language. The patter can include research and studies,names of famous psychologists, aswell as popular psychological theories which I think are interesting when I see Derren Brown use patter like this. For example, when Derren Brown replicated Stanley Milgram's 1963 study in "Obedience under legitimate authority" in "The Heist". So,to answer the question...I know enough to create what I believe to be interesting patter, and I think any serious mentalist should do their research before trying to spout rubbish which may lead them to being caught out one day. Eldon Fowler |
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SeVryn New user 25 Posts |
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DrTodd Inner circle 1976 Posts |
For the last 20 years I have been teaching, researching and publishing on the rational, structural and cultural explanations for human behaviour. The theories, methods and findings from the social sciences offer a fecund resource for grounding my performances and I often engage in a metaphysical continuum that stretches the claims in ways that remain plausible and entertaining.
Psychology offers a great resource and I have studied social and cognitive psychology, as well as its applications in political explanation. I have had the great honour of working as a subject in Martn T. Orne's hypnosis research and it has been fun to revisit his published works recently for some new research I am doing for my new show. Philosophy is also a great resource. Plato, Aristotle and Descartes for example explore all the big questions relating to human nature, the constiution of objects, mind-body dualism, causal explanation, the existence of God among many other topics. I love the Platonic idea that the world is comprised of the material world, the mental world, and the mathematical world. What better premise for a whole act? I also find great inspiration from the 'linguistic turn' in the social sciences and the postmodern focus on framing, discourse and narrative analysis. The use of rhetoric and heresthetics in framing discussions finds its way into carefully prepared patter. I am currently interested in the 'performativity' of what we do. The phrase 'I pronounce you man and wife' is qualitatively different from '2 plus 2 equals 4' ...the mere act of pronouncement in the first phrase makes something happen. I think we do this all the time as mystery entertainers, but with a wrinkle...sometimes we pronounce one thing and do another, a 'performative contradiction' if you will... This is something worth exploring and I hope to be working with a socio-linguist to explore this idea further. For a good read, I can recommend Raymond Tallis (2011) Aping Mankind, which challenges the dominance of 'neuro' everything explanations (see the craze about the Slieghts of Mind book) and the tendency to make everything Darwinian. He argues against the notion that we are our brains (i.e our minds and consciousness are nothing more than physical entities reducible to brain activity and genetic competition) and builds an argument for seeing consciousness as 'community of human minds'...again, what better premise for a performance? Is the mind separate from the body? Is the mind all in the brain? Or is this community of human minds accessible to us in some special way? There is so much great stuff out there for us to use. But I do not think there are too many shortcuts unfortunately, just more reading and thinking, and locating yourself into a world in which you feel comfortable. Best wishes Dr Todd |
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Jon_Thompson Inner circle Darkest Cheshire 2404 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-18 17:16, IAIN wrote: I'd say go quite deeply into the areas of the subject you claim to use - at least enough to be comfortable talking conversationally to an audience about it. If you get a psychology bore on your tail, smile sweetly while changing the subject! |
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Rebecca_Harris Veteran user 361 Posts |
I believe that you should certainly know the background of whatever you claim to use. If you're performing convincingly, your audience is bound to be interested and willno doubt ask some questions, you really need to be able to answer those questions. Also, the more background you know the more you're going to be able to apply that background to your performances.
Mentalism at The Enchanter's Emporium
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kinesis Inner circle Scotland, surrounded by 2708 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-19 02:18, DrTodd wrote: I LIKE that very much |
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*Mark Lewis* V.I.P. 1325 Posts |
I don't think you need to know that much. A cursory knowledge is fine. What a mentalist needs to know is how to stop being long winded and boring the crap out of everyone. It would do them far more good and take up far less time. Studying all those esoteric subjects is liable to make them more long winded.
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