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Destiny
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On 2011-07-25 11:04, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Wow, I read Destiny's post right after I posted my last. Talk about wasting a wish.


Not at all - I loved this parallel:

"I assume you'd agree it's stupid to confine someone in a small place against his will BECAUSE HE CONFINED SOMEONE IN A SMALL PLACE AGAINST HIS WILL."
Destiny
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On 2011-07-25 11:06, acesover wrote:
[Finally an answer. "Due process". Unfortunately as stated it is in this case superfluous and that is my whole point. What will it prove? Not trying to derail "due process". I am only trying to point out that having a trial in this case accomplishes nothing. However it does support the justice system and that is reason enough, regardless of how flawed.

However I stand by my point that as far as justice is concerned it accomplishes nothing in this case. It only prolongs getting to the punishment phase while giving this individual the spotlight. Which is exactly what he wanted. The killing was only a means to an end for him.


I find myself in agreement - we have to do it, but it is just going through the motions, and few of us wish to look at sewage under a spotlight.
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Aces, you and I both believe in natural law (as I recall). Civil law is something else entirely, and must be based on premises of constancy and universality. You commit a crime? You go before a judge and get arraigned, and you will have your day in court.

I think that is pretty darned important. Your mileage may vary.
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Aces, the answer to your question was posted before by a wise man Smile :
Quote:
I can see where if the trial were by passed and we went right to punishment phase of the system many could argue that a very dangerous precedent has been set. Honestly that is the only reason I can see for a trial. I admit it is a rather good one.


The foundation of a just system of law is that all are brought before the court equally--even people we think are terrorists. It sucks to have to wait to see justice done, but it's better this way.
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I think there are a few reasons why the trial route is preferable, one of which is that which is being alluded to in most of the above posts - the sort of ratification of the process itself. To the extent that there's confidence in the system, that confidence is in large part fostered by consistency. It's not perfectly consistent (or anything close to that), but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be as consistent as possible, and to the extent that it is, that's a good thing.

Another point would be the "slippery slope" argument; you don't want to start carving out exceptions for the cases where we're "sure" that the person is guilty, because leaving that decision to someone's judgment leaves open the possibility that at some point, someone will decide that we don't "need" a trial for someone who is 99.9999% certainly to have committed the crime, and then it turns out that's the one-in-a-million.

Additionally, criminal statutes have mental state requirements; knowing that someone committed an act isn't enough to establish criminal guilt. This is completely separate from mental competence to stand trial.

Also, facts that come out at trial may have a bearing on the sentence imposed.

I think the most important of these, far and away, is the confidence/consistency in a state that abides by the "rule of law" regardless of how the facts of any given situation may make it seem "unnecessary."
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From http://ca.news.yahoo.com/court-says-norw......034.html

Police announced, meanwhile, that they had dramatically overcounted the number of people slain in a shooting spree at a political youth group's island retreat and were lowering the confirmed death toll from 86 to 68.

The overall toll in the attack now stands at 76 instead of 93. Police spokesman Oystein Maeland said that higher, erroneous figure emerged as police and rescuers were focusing on helping survivors and securing the area, but he did not immediately explain more about how the overcounting occurred.

Police also raised the toll from a bombing outside the government's headquarters in Oslo before the shooting spree, from seven to eight.

The dramatic reduction in death toll adds to a list of police misteps: They took 90 minutes arrive at the island from the first shot, and people who called emergency services have reported being told by operators to stay off the lines unless they're calling about the Oslo bombings.
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I agree tht this could be very dangerous if a trial was skipped and we went right to the punishment phase. However I seem to be having a hard time expressinig my point of view. That is: What will it accomplish?

I definitely feel we have to have a trial because of the damage it could do and the precedents it could set. But does it accomplish anything else other than to preserve the justice system...and I do not mean to make that sound like it is not enough I am just trying to satisfy myself in what it will accomplish as far as this being something more than a formality. Will we be trying to show that maybe he had a reason for this? Maybe he is innocent because he was a deprived from having sweets as a child, ad naseum. Again I feel the only thing it accomplishes is what he set out to do in the first place and that is to give himself center stage and tell the world whe he did it. As I said the killing was nothing more than a means to an end for him. He took those lives for center stage which he will get. Mission accomplished for him. The trial serves no point other than to preserve the sysem which is important but nothing more.
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Off the top of my head, perhaps information that comes out at trial will help expose, find, and / or convict accomplices or sympathetic copy cats he knows of?

The trial could also bring comfort to some victim's families.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Quote:
On 2011-07-25 18:59, acesover wrote:

I agree tht this could be very dangerous if a trial was skipped and we went right to the punishment phase. However I seem to be having a hard time expressinig my point of view. That is: What will it accomplish?



It will show that we are a nation ruled by law. That no matter how horrendous or barbaric an act we will never lower ourselves to that level.

Declaring a man guilty and stringing him up from the nearest tree denies him due process and makes the state little better than the criminal himself.

Civilized men behave in a civilized manner. Thus we treat all equal under the law. Regardless of their supposedly known guilt.

Besides, isn't forgiveness the Christian thing to do?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Quote:
On 2011-07-25 19:48, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-07-25 18:59, acesover wrote:

I agree tht this could be very dangerous if a trial was skipped and we went right to the punishment phase. However I seem to be having a hard time expressinig my point of view. That is: What will it accomplish?



It will show that we are a nation ruled by law. That no matter how horrendous or barbaric an act we will never lower ourselves to that level.

Declaring a man guilty and stringing him up from the nearest tree denies him due process and makes the state little better than the criminal himself.

Civilized men behave in a civilized manner. Thus we treat all equal under the law. Regardless of their supposedly known guilt.

Besides, isn't forgiveness the Christian thing to do?


I kind of agreed with most of what you inferred till the last sentence. Are you suggesting we forgive this individual because we are christians?
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EsnRedshirt
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I thought Lutheranism was the state religion of Norway. At any rate, there is a difference between forgiving and letting him kill again. I think that the perpetrator is going to be in jail for a long time, for the safety of all society.
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Mr. Mystoffelees
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Besides, isn't forgiveness the Christian thing to do?


Well, I recall the Godfather was a Christian. I side him...
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On 2011-07-25 21:33, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
Quote:

Besides, isn't forgiveness the Christian thing to do?


Well, I recall the Godfather was a Christian. I side him...


I forget. Who did he forgive?
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Are we talking about James Brown?
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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balducci
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On 2011-07-24 01:52, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-07-24 01:29, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Wow, Norway's toughest criminal sentence is 21 years?! Nothing like killing 92 people and getting out of prison in time for your 55th birthday party.

This link indicates that effective life imprisonment is possible in Norway, but rare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway

"The maximum indeterminate penalty, called "containment" (Norwegian: forvaring), is also set at 21 years imprisonment, and the prisoner is required to serve at least 10 years before becoming eligible for parole. "Containment" is used when the prisoner is deemed a danger to society and there is a great chance of committing violent crimes in the future. If the prisoner is still considered dangerous after serving the original sentence, the prisoner can receive up to five years additional containment. If the additional time is served, and the offender is still considered dangerous, a prisoner can continue to receive up to five years additional containment, and this, in theory, could result in actual life imprisonment."

I saw in newspaper reports today that he could be charged with an offense of "crimes against humanity" which carries a maximum penalty of 30 years versus the 21 years for the current charges of "terrorism". Presumably the subsequent continuing option of five years additional containment applies in either case.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
acesover
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On 2011-07-25 19:29, balducci wrote:
Off the top of my head, perhaps information that comes out at trial will help expose, find, and / or convict accomplices or sympathetic copy cats he knows of?

The trial could also bring comfort to some victim's families.


The comfort you elude to is a two edged sword as it may also open new wounds that were starting to heal with time. Do you really feel that the parents and loved ones of those children will get comfort reliving the event in a court of law? Do you believe that the parents hearing this subhuman give his reasons for slaughtering their children will give them comfort and solance? I personally do not.

Personally if they do not have death penalty I suggest they lock him away somewhere and forget what they did with the key.
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LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-07-26 14:39, balducci wrote:
I saw in newspaper reports today that he could be charged with an offense of "crimes against humanity" which carries a maximum penalty of 30 years versus the 21 years for the current charges of "terrorism". Presumably the subsequent continuing option of five years additional containment applies in either case.


Whatever the elements of "Crimes Against Humanity," and whatever they call the various offenses in their criminal code, it's hard to fathom that this wouldn't qualify for their most serious criminal violation. I can't imagine this guy getting a 30% discount off of their longest sentence (i.e. 21 instead of 30 years).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
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This topic is just one of those that bring out my "Dark Side" which I believe all of us have to some degree. Some of course are darker than others.
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EsnRedshirt
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Some psychiatrists have been analyzing his manifesto, and rather than insanity, they say it shows some of the hallmarks of sociopathy. I believe that would make him a prime candidate for "Containment", as he would completely understand his actions, he would just not care about how other people were affected by them.
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acesover
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On 2011-07-27 13:14, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Some psychiatrists have been analyzing his manifesto, and rather than insanity, they say it shows some of the hallmarks of sociopathy. I believe that would make him a prime candidate for "Containment", as he would completely understand his actions, he would just not care about how other people were affected by them.


After killing in excess of 70 children I definitely feel he is definitely a sociopath. However I do not feel that containment is the answer for this "thing". I really feel if there ever was an arguement for the death penalty this is one fairly close to the top of the list. I think a firing squad or gas chamber is ideally suited for this guy or hanging or even the chopping block. Make the punishment fit the crime, and confinement does not fit the crime here. Giving up his life definitely fits.
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