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Destiny Inner circle 1429 Posts |
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On 2011-07-25 11:04, LobowolfXXX wrote: Not at all - I loved this parallel: "I assume you'd agree it's stupid to confine someone in a small place against his will BECAUSE HE CONFINED SOMEONE IN A SMALL PLACE AGAINST HIS WILL." |
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Destiny Inner circle 1429 Posts |
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On 2011-07-25 11:06, acesover wrote: I find myself in agreement - we have to do it, but it is just going through the motions, and few of us wish to look at sewage under a spotlight. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Aces, you and I both believe in natural law (as I recall). Civil law is something else entirely, and must be based on premises of constancy and universality. You commit a crime? You go before a judge and get arraigned, and you will have your day in court.
I think that is pretty darned important. Your mileage may vary. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Aces, the answer to your question was posted before by a wise man :
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I can see where if the trial were by passed and we went right to punishment phase of the system many could argue that a very dangerous precedent has been set. Honestly that is the only reason I can see for a trial. I admit it is a rather good one. The foundation of a just system of law is that all are brought before the court equally--even people we think are terrorists. It sucks to have to wait to see justice done, but it's better this way.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I think there are a few reasons why the trial route is preferable, one of which is that which is being alluded to in most of the above posts - the sort of ratification of the process itself. To the extent that there's confidence in the system, that confidence is in large part fostered by consistency. It's not perfectly consistent (or anything close to that), but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be as consistent as possible, and to the extent that it is, that's a good thing.
Another point would be the "slippery slope" argument; you don't want to start carving out exceptions for the cases where we're "sure" that the person is guilty, because leaving that decision to someone's judgment leaves open the possibility that at some point, someone will decide that we don't "need" a trial for someone who is 99.9999% certainly to have committed the crime, and then it turns out that's the one-in-a-million. Additionally, criminal statutes have mental state requirements; knowing that someone committed an act isn't enough to establish criminal guilt. This is completely separate from mental competence to stand trial. Also, facts that come out at trial may have a bearing on the sentence imposed. I think the most important of these, far and away, is the confidence/consistency in a state that abides by the "rule of law" regardless of how the facts of any given situation may make it seem "unnecessary."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
From http://ca.news.yahoo.com/court-says-norw......034.html
Police announced, meanwhile, that they had dramatically overcounted the number of people slain in a shooting spree at a political youth group's island retreat and were lowering the confirmed death toll from 86 to 68. The overall toll in the attack now stands at 76 instead of 93. Police spokesman Oystein Maeland said that higher, erroneous figure emerged as police and rescuers were focusing on helping survivors and securing the area, but he did not immediately explain more about how the overcounting occurred. Police also raised the toll from a bombing outside the government's headquarters in Oslo before the shooting spree, from seven to eight. The dramatic reduction in death toll adds to a list of police misteps: They took 90 minutes arrive at the island from the first shot, and people who called emergency services have reported being told by operators to stay off the lines unless they're calling about the Oslo bombings.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
I agree tht this could be very dangerous if a trial was skipped and we went right to the punishment phase. However I seem to be having a hard time expressinig my point of view. That is: What will it accomplish?
I definitely feel we have to have a trial because of the damage it could do and the precedents it could set. But does it accomplish anything else other than to preserve the justice system...and I do not mean to make that sound like it is not enough I am just trying to satisfy myself in what it will accomplish as far as this being something more than a formality. Will we be trying to show that maybe he had a reason for this? Maybe he is innocent because he was a deprived from having sweets as a child, ad naseum. Again I feel the only thing it accomplishes is what he set out to do in the first place and that is to give himself center stage and tell the world whe he did it. As I said the killing was nothing more than a means to an end for him. He took those lives for center stage which he will get. Mission accomplished for him. The trial serves no point other than to preserve the sysem which is important but nothing more.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
Off the top of my head, perhaps information that comes out at trial will help expose, find, and / or convict accomplices or sympathetic copy cats he knows of?
The trial could also bring comfort to some victim's families.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2011-07-25 18:59, acesover wrote: It will show that we are a nation ruled by law. That no matter how horrendous or barbaric an act we will never lower ourselves to that level. Declaring a man guilty and stringing him up from the nearest tree denies him due process and makes the state little better than the criminal himself. Civilized men behave in a civilized manner. Thus we treat all equal under the law. Regardless of their supposedly known guilt. Besides, isn't forgiveness the Christian thing to do?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2011-07-25 19:48, Payne wrote: I kind of agreed with most of what you inferred till the last sentence. Are you suggesting we forgive this individual because we are christians?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
I thought Lutheranism was the state religion of Norway. At any rate, there is a difference between forgiving and letting him kill again. I think that the perpetrator is going to be in jail for a long time, for the safety of all society.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
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Well, I recall the Godfather was a Christian. I side him...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2011-07-25 21:33, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote: I forget. Who did he forgive?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
Are we talking about James Brown?
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
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On 2011-07-24 01:52, balducci wrote: I saw in newspaper reports today that he could be charged with an offense of "crimes against humanity" which carries a maximum penalty of 30 years versus the 21 years for the current charges of "terrorism". Presumably the subsequent continuing option of five years additional containment applies in either case.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2011-07-25 19:29, balducci wrote: The comfort you elude to is a two edged sword as it may also open new wounds that were starting to heal with time. Do you really feel that the parents and loved ones of those children will get comfort reliving the event in a court of law? Do you believe that the parents hearing this subhuman give his reasons for slaughtering their children will give them comfort and solance? I personally do not. Personally if they do not have death penalty I suggest they lock him away somewhere and forget what they did with the key.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2011-07-26 14:39, balducci wrote: Whatever the elements of "Crimes Against Humanity," and whatever they call the various offenses in their criminal code, it's hard to fathom that this wouldn't qualify for their most serious criminal violation. I can't imagine this guy getting a 30% discount off of their longest sentence (i.e. 21 instead of 30 years).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
This topic is just one of those that bring out my "Dark Side" which I believe all of us have to some degree. Some of course are darker than others.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
Some psychiatrists have been analyzing his manifesto, and rather than insanity, they say it shows some of the hallmarks of sociopathy. I believe that would make him a prime candidate for "Containment", as he would completely understand his actions, he would just not care about how other people were affected by them.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2011-07-27 13:14, EsnRedshirt wrote: After killing in excess of 70 children I definitely feel he is definitely a sociopath. However I do not feel that containment is the answer for this "thing". I really feel if there ever was an arguement for the death penalty this is one fairly close to the top of the list. I think a firing squad or gas chamber is ideally suited for this guy or hanging or even the chopping block. Make the punishment fit the crime, and confinement does not fit the crime here. Giving up his life definitely fits.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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