|
|
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Musings, ramblings...hmmmm...I started to react to some things from another thread and realized that I did not want to pull the discussion away from the line it was on.
I started to think about what it means to say, "Hey, look, here's something that's IMPOSSIBLE!" In regards to a 'magic' trick or routine. When we say that something is 'impossible' and then proceed to DO exactly that thing, we are of course refuted by the very act. If it was truly 'impossible' then it would not have happened. It did happen or at least APPEARED to and thus it's not 'impossible' in the sense that it's a thing that can just NOT be accomplished. It WAS accomplished ergo, not impossible. What if we call the thing we are about to do, "Amazing"? The question then arises: Why is it amazing? For most folks it's amazing, because up to that point in time they would have thought that 'THAT' was 'IMPOSSIBLE'. It's not so much that MAGIC is impossible (our kind of magic....) it's that folks have to think that it's very, very, very unlikely that bills will float and cards rise of themselves to the top of the deck, etc. Normal human experience says that those things don't happen and so when they do we are amazed. The 'impossible' is in fact just very improbable. But, it's more than that! Not only is it impossible or improbable it REALLY is impossible. Bills don't float and cards in fact do not of themselves rise to the top of the deck. It's all illusion. What was accomplished was not 'real' magic, but a 'special effect' offered to folks with dressing of various kinds. The impossible remains the impossible. Folks who watch magic come in various kinds. You will have a contingent of folks that REALLY do want to believe that you can actually DO the impossible. They don't want illusion, they WANT reality to encompass something that in effect is a demonstration of power. Some of those will split into two camps: Those that want that power for themselves and some that just want to be touched by he or she that controls the power. These are the folks that in myth become addicted to the bite of the Vampire or who wish the Vampire to change them to be like him. In another form it is sado-masochistic. One feeds the other offers food. You will have another group that just wants to watch the magic and enjoy themselves. From this group you will get a small number who want to be able to do magic themselves. This is the widest group. The Audience with a capital 'A'. They catch the shows on tv and go to Vegas. Magic is seen as a legit part of the culture and they understand that they have seen a pretense at the impossible and enjoy it for what it is. Since this is a work in progress....I'm frankly working on identifying other groups, but the two above encompass what I think are the two most observable. Enjoy,
Brad Burt
|
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Good start, Brad -- and I'll post some thoughts when morning really gets here. For now, please consider the differences between "not possible,"non-possible," and "un-possible" against a backdrop of "generally considered impossible" vs. "imagined impossible for me." How strong is a person's conviction about something being "impossible?"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-07 04:34, funsway wrote: And you do not consider this to be obfuscation, Ken? Once again you and I seem to have a problem with the meaning of words. For me, words mean what people think they mean--no more, no less. Dictionaries can be (though not always) useful tools for understanding how most people mean words. But reaching back into your imagination to make distinctions that most people do not mean? That simply cannot be helpful to any discussion. It might be helpful if you then proceed to give your imagined definitions. But you never do...you leave it hanging as if the rest of us can fill in the blanks. But we can't fill in the blanks of what is only in your head. I accused you six months ago of solipsism. This is what I meant. I don't mean it bad. Really, I don't. But it is obvious to most of the regulars here that you are sometimes difficult to understand. Some think that's because you are a deep thinker. I myself remain unconvinced. |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Is meaning the present active form of badness?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I am always amazed by your postings, Unhinged, but never surprised. I keep hoping you will actually contribute something rather than just attack, muddle, divert under the pretense of representing a mysterious group of posters. You only speak for yourself -- not "most of the regulars" at all. If I were to go to the dictionary, one of the defintions of "impossible" is "markedly difficult to deal with" -- well, you certainly can model that.
What I offer is explanation of hiow people use the word "impossible" other than the way magicians do. Actually, evidence. In the tens of thousands of interviews I have had with business owners over problems they encounter, most have used the word "impossible" to describe their situation. NONE have meant that in the "incapable of being or of occuring" sense. Insead, they meant, "felt to be unattainable or very difficult for them to do." Thus, it was critical to discover whther they did mean "Not possible" in a physical law sense, "Non-possible' in a pratical or legal sense, or simply that they did not know how. A type phrase might be, "Making a 7AM meeting would be impossible becasue i"m not a morning person." That is what "people think it means." If this were not so, then magciains would not have to go to great lengths to prove that a prop is unprepared, ungimmicked, solid, no "trap doors," etc. before they attempt "the impossible." Thsi term is relative to the experience and education of the spectator just as much as "magic" is. If you wish for him'her to be caught on the horns of The Dilemma you must have agreement on what both terms mean within the context of the performance. Assume nothing more than necessary -- demonstate the rest.. For example, in the USA it is fairly safe to a assume that any spectator is familiar with a deck of playing cards. You don't have to explain that one side has backs and the other side 52 unique displays. You also know that they will consider that having a card jump around in the deck of its own volition to be impossible. However, sinse they have seen magic tricks before they will only "feel" it to be impossible. So, you go to lengths to have the deck borrowed, examined, used in a natural way, shuffled, etc. to increase the likely how that they will think "not possible" rather than "improbable." If you were to perform magci effects in a foreigh land where playing cards are not common it could be unwise to do card tricks since you would have to prove the impossibility to a much greater degree. Many technology devices common today accomplish things though impossible just decades ago. There is a wonderful book out on the Physics of the Impossible that all magicians should read. Some magic effects are not as amazing to general audiences as they once were, and IMHO The Dilemma is more difficult to achieve without some proof/demonstration that "impossible" measns "not possible." Why does Whit have a spectator play with the rings? Partially to continuously demonstrate they are solid and unprepared in contrast to most presentaions in which the rings are suspect -- especially since every boy's kit had a gimmicked set. As Brad points out, in "Our Magic" we must take the audience from "improbable" to "truly impossible" to have maximum efffect. He has defined two groups of spectator thinking relative to "impossible." I am adding a couple of more. In other forms of performance magic the focus on "impossible" is different, but also critical. Sometimes the objective is to take the spectator from "not possible" to "I don't know how" -- and a magic trick can be used allegorically to change his perspective. Other people us ethe word "impossible" as an excuse for not trying, or the avoidance of responsibility. Thus, it is my experienced suggestion that magicians avoid using the word "impossible" in a presentation because each spectator will place his own spin on it. This why I like Whit's latest descriptions of maximimizing magic as a cause while minimizing other possible causes. Since the goal is entertainment, that is easier to swallow than any absolute destruction of a favored impossibility. Alwasy remember that one of the greatest fears of people today is that of "appearing foolish." What a person considers as impossible may touch on certainty of beliefs and even conviction. Understanding exactly what another person means by "impossible" may be critical to effective communication.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
As a magician, who gives a flying **** how non-magicians define "impossible?" A magician is not about going before an audience to make a linguistic argument that he or she wants them to accept. It is about more or less dependably giving them an experience. It is only the signs and symptoms of success in that endeavor that matters.
Michael Kamen
|
Johnny Butterfield Veteran user 378 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-07 04:34, funsway wrote: Will you define these for me? I have not been able to find definitions anywhere else. I can't compare the differences between things I have no knowledge about.
The current economic crisis is due to all the coins I've vanished.
The poster formerly known as Fman111. |
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I could not agree more Michael. But I am going to say what I think anyway.
As its an art that we practice then it is an imitation. Its the imitation of effects that have no rational cause. We can, if we do choose, to give our audience some irrational cause for the effect, such as claiming that we trained the cards to do acrobatics. Or we can simply leave it to imagination of audience what the cause of the effect is or was. It is only impossible to the naïve audience. Its part of the art to not let them be naïve about the nature of of our art and we should let them know its its just a trick. Our magic can sometimes seem very real unlike other arts. Well I guess acting be can very real also; The con man playing a part is very real to to his victim. People do want to see real magic but its not our art to meet that desire its the job of the charlatans to do that. Some perform charlatanry in the name of our art, like quacks do in in the name of medicine. However it seems to me there exists as many different styles in magic as there are that exist is painting or music. We have fellows who produce works of realism and others comical works. Anyhow we should not in our art be seriously claiming that what we do is actually impossible at all. That does not mean we can not claim that things outside of our art are actual magic. There are in fact effects that exist that are known to have no rational cause. That is what I think as an amateur card guy and a fan of other magic.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Some great stuff. Tommy, I agree and I don't think I have ever used the term 'impossible' to any great extent. I think that you have to assume a sort of cultural norm: Bills don't just float about a room in which there is no wind, Coins don't just jump invisibly form one closed hand to the other, women torn asunder in a long box don't generally 'heal' instantly, and on and on.
One HAS to generalize about what an audience will consider 'impossible' or even 'improbable' of happening at any given moment. Someone can claim that they believe that everything just happens by willy-nilly by chance, but I have never met anyone who believed that that actually lived as IF they believed it. We live our life and have never seen ANYTHING just levitate in front of us. Not a rock and not a dollar bill. Ergo most folks would consider it IMPOSSIBLE that bills or rocks would of a sudden simply float about. Magic is actually about taking 'things' that most folks on a cultural basis would consider IMPOSSIBLE and then offer a Whitian Dilemma: Look it IS possible....................HOW???????? Good heavens that guy 'made' or something 'made' that bill float. That's just, well, impossible....but, crap, I SAW it happen! As I think it out/write it out it occurs to me that all I'm doing is in fact restating what Whit has written about the Dilemma. I could call it Brad's Impossibility Challenge, publish first and get all the glory....ah, ha, ha, ha, haaaaaaa! Just kidding... The beauty of it is that it actually IS very simple. IF... we could not depend on most folks in a culture understanding what I've written above then we really could not perform magic at any level for any reason that one might choose to perform. If someone tells me they are driving a 'stick', I guarantee you that I will not imagine them riding a broom ala Harry Potter. It's ALL about communication. Here's an impossible or seeming impossible thing to do. Look I can do it! Huh? That's cool man, do it again... Hey, Bob, watch this guy do this thing he does. Cool. And, the classic phrase that puts the cherry on the top of the whipped cream: How DO you do that??? That one phrase more than any other tells us we got it right. There is the perfect expression, again as I understand what Whit has taught, of the Dilemma as experienced by the audience! HOW DID YOU DO THAT??? We moved the expectation of the audience from Impossible right past improbable to "Hey that can be done!" Now, with that AFFECT you do whatever you wish. In sales? Great! Use it as Ken has noted elsewhere to illustrate what YOU can do for THEM by way of training, etc. Are you a filthy scum bag con person? Well, you see where that is going..... Are you a magical entertainer? Go forth my friends and Dilemmmaize!!! Let slip the dogs of tomfoolery and quizzical faces! Etc. ;-) Best,
Brad Burt
|
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
It's your thread, Brad -- if you want to limit it to "magical entertainment", so shall I
when planning a magic effect (routining) we seek simplicity on one hand and lack of confusion on the other. If you are going to pass a knife though a pane of glass the audience must know it is glass and not some new wonder plastic. If you are going to levitate an object it helps to imply that the object is heavy, solid or massive. Actually, I think partially levitating an onject can be better than completley floating it about -- which kleads to the question ... can something seem too impossible for an audience to accept? Are effects that achieve the "highly improbable" more entertaining and memorable than those which defy common impossibility? Does the Dilemma work better as Inducement or Persuasion?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Let the audience decide what is seemingly impossible and/or amazing or scarey for that matter.
What you say and how you present yourself is very important. Really there is only on group split into several beliefs about magic, superstition and the supernatural. To me it's about entertaining with what we've learned and continue to learn. |
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Ken: I know what you mean. One thing that you get when you have been a 'dealer' (magic...) for a LOT of years is an incredibly broad experience with magic. You do in fact get to use, examine, play with, perform material that you wouldn't do in your regular act in a zillion years. But, it allows one to appreciate magic in a very wide sense.
One of the things that I noted early on and that I found went against almost all 'common' wisdom was that an audience did not seem to always need to be 'convinced' that something was 'real' or 'normal'. Or, that what was needed to do the convincing was a very low effort. I found this quite interesting. After experimentation and observation I came to the conclusion that many times magicians will run when no one is following! That we can OVER CONVINCE and that much of the time less is more and that's you can do more with attitude toward the items used in the act than you can with overt action towards it. So, I agree with you, but a lot of the time the HOW we convince needs to be thought out much more carefully than is often done. As a for instance: I have, even recently, seen someone show a deck of cards. Call it a 'normal' deck of cards. Have it shuffled by a spectator, etc. I generally take deck, toss to spectator, ask they shuffle....NEVER EXAMINE...and give it back. All the while they do this I am looking elsewhere addressing the audience, etc. How we 'prove' that something is what we purport it to me or 'act' like we want folks to think that it is ... is a crucial step in the process of setting up 'sting' of the effect later. Less is almost always more, but not always. One routine where I think LOTS of examination or over proving is quite effect, by the way, is Sub Trunk. I always liked when someone was brought on stage to thump the trunk on all sides. Look at the lid, etc. Really go over the thing. In that instance I found that extra time spent really sold the finale for me. But, I'm NOT a stage illusionist, so Ray Pierce may have something to add. Oh, Ken, I don't care if say Magic and Sales is talked about as long as it's clear about the form being talked about, etc. I think the Dilemma exists no matter how the magic is used or I don't see the point in a general sense. I really liked the post on the '3' thread in which you really clarified for me how you use magic in your sales work. That was fine stuff. Best,
Brad Burt
|
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Can you factor out the learned behavior stuff like "how'd you do that" and ^%)$%*(*&)!!! and "how many demons do you have there?" and the really awkward one... "um - can you heal my child?"
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
No more than I can unproven and un-argued assumptions.
Best,
Brad Burt
|
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Dealing wth the "Impossible" (0 Likes) |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.07 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |