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landmark
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I have seen the silliness of 'historical preservation' first hand. At home in Cairns a piece of prime real estate cannot be sold or used at the moment because the rotten derelict shell of the first hospital, actually just a large crumbling white ant ridden house, is regarded as significant heritage wise. It cannot be repaired - it's too far gone - and there seems to be some impasse where it can't be demolished. The current owner has put plastic over the whole thing, built a fence around it (chain link, I suspect) and put up signs warning noone should trespass, squat in, play with matches, or vandalise his valuable heritage property while he's away in England for 3 years.


Get rid of the building and keep the fence? Smile
Destiny
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Now that's lateral thinking! Smile
critter
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On 2011-08-11 03:00, Destiny wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-08-11 00:15, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that very few of the people on the other side of Glenn in this one have owned real property that has become heavily restricted at the whim of a historical preservation society/staff.


I have seen the silliness of 'historical preservation' first hand. At home in Cairns a piece of prime real estate cannot be sold or used at the moment because the rotten derelict shell of the first hospital, actually just a large crumbling white ant ridden house, is regarded as significant heritage wise. It cannot be repaired - it's too far gone - and there seems to be some impasse where it can't be demolished. The current owner has put plastic over the whole thing, built a fence around it (chain link, I suspect) and put up signs warning noone should trespass, squat in, play with matches, or vandalise his valuable heritage property while he's away in England for 3 years.

So far it appears the local squattors and arsonists have been too dim to get his hint.

When I post to disagree with GDW, I don't see either my post or the thread in isolation, because every post he makes appears to be a contribution toward his broader agenda.

I am the first to agree with GDW that our system is not perfect, and as one apparently unable to see shades of grey, he likes to use that admission against me. Our laws and systems are not always just or sensible. I have suffered myself under what I thought to be unjust laws, and like most people, have usually seen the laws that affected me as more important than the ones that affect other people.

However while GDW seems to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, I believe our democracies have evolved to the best system of government yet known to mankind. I do not believe his idea of a corporate anarchist society is feasible in any way, shape or form. We all yearn for greater freedom and it appears the greater our freedom, the more we desire. Just a couple of decades ago, gays in the Western democracies hoped that one day they would not be subject to prosecution for consensual adult sexual activity in private - now they want to make it compulsory (joke) - now they want to get married to each other.

Whatever the wrongs of our system of government now and historically, it has continually improved to the point most of us now have greater wealth and freedom than people could have imagined even two generations ago. Sadly many of us seem to take it for granted and (now I'll sound like a conservative) the degree of self entitlement is astonishing.

I am all for improving our system of government, righting it's wrongs, making sensible it's excesses etc but I won't any time soon be seriously considering a system which the proponent has never seriously explained, beyond constantly pointing out the usually trivial shortcomings of what we have.


You should write speeches for civil rights leaders. This stuff always has me going "Yeah!" and "*** Right!"
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers


"This I offer in explanation of how it was that I found myself in my undergarments as I sat in my cell attempting to plot my escape."
~Professor Phineas Valeyard, Miskatonic University Dept.of Psychodynamic Natural History.

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tommy
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You mean the FEMA camps are here to stay?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Destiny
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On 2011-08-11 08:42, tommy wrote:
You mean the FEMA camps are here to stay?


Yes Tommy,

That is correct.

Farm Equipment Manufacturers Association do not intend going anywhere.

http://www.farmequip.org/

Their Members bring Choice, Value and Innovation to Agriculture.
gdw
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Destiny, what you have now IS corporate run, and the constant "attempts" to regulate them are often the very definition of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Have you watched the documentary from the other thread, Hot Coffee?
It covers exactly the kind of thing I'm often talking about when it covers tort "reform."

The current system has you taking the illusion of controlling corporations etc in exchange for a government that is dragging behind society when it comes to acceptance. There's no reason people should have to wait for permission from the "majority" for what they do in the bedroom, and who they do it with.

It's one thing to fight for acceptance, it's another thing entirely to have to fight for permission.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Destiny
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Never before have minorities been afforded so much by the majority - that is a strength of where our system has evolved to.

Whatever the failings of the past, our democracies have now brought us to the point where the majority does not selfishly plunder all the treasure for itself.
gdw
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Destiny, if the majority accepts minorities, then you don't need the government to codify it in law.

Instead, what you have is the codification of the discrimination, which stays on the books long after the majority comes to acceptance.

It's not "democracy" that leads to acceptance, but rather people who drag the government to acceptance decades late.

If it was as you suggest, then there would be no need for people to still be fighting for permission from the government to marry who they wish.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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Apparently some have a hard time comprehending the whole historical precedent thing. Civil rights are something that is constantly evolving and improving. It was a big step when homosexuality was removed from the DSM as a psychological disorder, and we've continued to evolve since. As Destiny has pointed out, it isn't perfect, but it's the best it's ever been and it'll keep getting better.
(Now if we could just get our finances in order.)
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers


"This I offer in explanation of how it was that I found myself in my undergarments as I sat in my cell attempting to plot my escape."
~Professor Phineas Valeyard, Miskatonic University Dept.of Psychodynamic Natural History.

New Facebook Page:
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Destiny
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Glenn,

Could you tell me just one thing Anarchy has done for homosexuals or any other oppressed minority?
gdw
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"Anarchy" doesn't "so" anything. However, in a system where people were free to contract, or engage in relationships, of pretty much any kind, with other consenting adults, without having to beg permission from a state, well, it would "do" a hell of a lot more than a system under which even the ACT of engaging in homosexual sex was still illegal in some places less than 10 years ago.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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And what about a non-society with no criminal justice system for any homophobic *censored* who wants to chain a queer to a fence and beat them to death? Maybe we could bring back public stonings too.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers


"This I offer in explanation of how it was that I found myself in my undergarments as I sat in my cell attempting to plot my escape."
~Professor Phineas Valeyard, Miskatonic University Dept.of Psychodynamic Natural History.

New Facebook Page:
https://www.facebook.com/Valeyard-Magic-Stage-233226717588438/
gdw
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A nice break down of law as a private good, to answer your question critter:

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/L......ood.html
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Destiny
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On 2011-08-11 11:46, gdw wrote:
"Anarchy" doesn't "so" anything. However, in a system where people were free to contract, or engage in relationships, of pretty much any kind, with other consenting adults, without having to beg permission from a state, well, it would "do" a hell of a lot more than a system under which even the ACT of engaging in homosexual sex was still illegal in some places less than 10 years ago.


So, under 'anarchy' relationships of 'pretty much any kind' will be allowed. I guess 'pretty much any kind' means restrictions against incestuous relationships resulting in problems from inbreeding and stuff like that?

So 'anarchy' would provide us with exactly the same system we have now - it would just be a name change to make you feel better, or should I say, freer?
critter
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On 2011-08-11 14:59, gdw wrote:
A nice break down of law as a private good, to answer your question critter:

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/L......ood.html


So... people with money and power get together to agree upon which rules they think are best for the rest of us and then enforced by private armies. Got it.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers


"This I offer in explanation of how it was that I found myself in my undergarments as I sat in my cell attempting to plot my escape."
~Professor Phineas Valeyard, Miskatonic University Dept.of Psychodynamic Natural History.

New Facebook Page:
https://www.facebook.com/Valeyard-Magic-Stage-233226717588438/
Destiny
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Yes - too much negotiation and arbitration for my liking - only to arive at outcomes we generally have now.

I suspect the rest of us will be posting a barrage of links to injustices and crazy 'the power has gone to their head' situations once Glenn's idealised Utopia comes into being and we all live in daily fear of the security companies not in our employ, and hope and pray we can trust those who are.

Perhaps what we need is a Monopoly like game called 'Anarchy' where we can try this with play money and see how it works?
S2000magician
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On 2011-08-11 17:53, Destiny wrote:
Perhaps what we need is a Monopoly like game called 'Anarchy' where we can try this with play money and see how it works?

I can see it now: you roll the dice . . . and your token moves wherever the heck it wants to.
tommy
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Us. Our. We.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
S2000magician
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On 2011-08-11 18:15, tommy wrote:
Us. Our. We.

I. Me. Mine.

(Oh, sorry, I thought this was the Beatles thread: I was thinking about George.)
gdw
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On 2011-08-11 17:46, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-08-11 14:59, gdw wrote:
A nice break down of law as a private good, to answer your question critter:

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/L......ood.html


So... people with money and power get together to agree upon which rules they think are best for the rest of us and then enforced by private armies. Got it.


As opposed to now where it's the exact same thing, only with "public" armies, and a few publicly funded private ones as well.

And no, that is not what the article described.

Quote:
On 2011-08-11 17:53, Destiny wrote:
Yes - too much negotiation and arbitration for my liking - only to arive at outcomes we generally have now.
. . .


Far from what we have now, and you hit the nail on the head there, if it's too much for your liking, then guess what, you can go with someone else. Unlike now, you would actually have that choice.

Too much "negotiation and arbitration," as oppose to now where it's all negotiation and bribing, I mean lobbying?

As for arriving at "what we have now," hardly.

"So, under 'anarchy' relationships of 'pretty much any kind' will be allowed. I guess 'pretty much any kind' means restrictions against incestuous relationships resulting in problems from inbreeding and stuff like that? "

No, the limitations would be those set by the individual. Consenting "adults." As long as you aren't harming/infringing on another or their property without their consent, so, no, nothing like we have now, where the state, and corporations get to decide what you can and cannot do with each other, especially when money is involved.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
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