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Close.Up.Dave
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Today, at least to me, marked the day where I could considerably notice the media is starting to spew out "stories" about the 2012 election. Little things like, "Bachmann asked if she was submissive," "What does this last week mean for Obama's relection," etc.

The last election was intense, and looking back on it, it all took place in our minds. Sure it took place physically, but the over sensationalism of the media made it that much more intense. I know I can't take my vote back from Obama, but I sure as heck would not have voted for McCain either.

I know I can't be the only one who is not looking forward to watching the public be drawn into the sensationalism of a political election. I can guarantee you none of the candidates will be of any value, and we have no idea who the finalists are yet. I'm tired of only having 4 options: 1. Vote Democrat, 2. Vote Republican, 3. Vote for a third party and make no difference (other than taking away votes from 1. or 2.) and 4. Don't vote at all.

I'm also quite tired of the presidential election overshadowing the importance of knowing who we elect into the house and senate. Is there any solution to this?
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-08-13 21:21, Close.Up.Dave wrote:
3. Vote for a third party and make no difference


You make no difference if you vote for either of the two major parties, either. But if it makes you feel any better, your vote also wouldn't matter in a presidential election under another system, either.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Close.Up.Dave
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Quote:
On 2011-08-13 21:28, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-08-13 21:21, Close.Up.Dave wrote:
3. Vote for a third party and make no difference


You make no difference if you vote for either of the two major parties, either. But if it makes you feel any better, your vote also wouldn't matter in a presidential election under another system, either.


Well, the difference you make by voting for the major parties is to elect that person in. Whether or not they make the changes you want is a subjective perspective. So to say my vote won't count in another system isn't entirely accurate. You make the difference by electing them in, but the changes they make is out of the hands of the voter. I guess the questions I asked were specifically from the perspective of watching how elections are performed and carried out. Not necessarily what happens afterward. Then again, it was more of a rant anyway.
gdw
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It's far beyond repair. You don't have to agree with my other views, or "agenda," to agree with that.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-08-13 21:31, Close.Up.Dave wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-08-13 21:28, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-08-13 21:21, Close.Up.Dave wrote:
3. Vote for a third party and make no difference


You make no difference if you vote for either of the two major parties, either. But if it makes you feel any better, your vote also wouldn't matter in a presidential election under another system, either.


Well, the difference you make by voting for the major parties is to elect that person in. Whether or not they make the changes you want is a subjective perspective. So to say my vote won't count in another system isn't entirely accurate. You make the difference by electing them in, but the changes they make is out of the hands of the voter. I guess the questions I asked were specifically from the perspective of watching how elections are performed and carried out. Not necessarily what happens afterward. Then again, it was more of a rant anyway.


You (singular) don't make a difference by voting for the major parties any more than you do for the minor parties. You said you voted for Obama; had you voted for McCain, your favorite third-party candidate, stayed home, or written in Charlie Sheen, Obama would still have won. Your vote didn't make a difference in the slightest.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Close.Up.Dave
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Quote:
On 2011-08-13 22:24, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-08-13 21:31, Close.Up.Dave wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-08-13 21:28, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-08-13 21:21, Close.Up.Dave wrote:
3. Vote for a third party and make no difference


You make no difference if you vote for either of the two major parties, either. But if it makes you feel any better, your vote also wouldn't matter in a presidential election under another system, either.


Well, the difference you make by voting for the major parties is to elect that person in. Whether or not they make the changes you want is a subjective perspective. So to say my vote won't count in another system isn't entirely accurate. You make the difference by electing them in, but the changes they make is out of the hands of the voter. I guess the questions I asked were specifically from the perspective of watching how elections are performed and carried out. Not necessarily what happens afterward. Then again, it was more of a rant anyway.


You (singular) don't make a difference by voting for the major parties any more than you do for the minor parties. You said you voted for Obama; had you voted for McCain, your favorite third-party candidate, stayed home, or written in Charlie Sheen, Obama would still have won. Your vote didn't make a difference in the slightest.


Well I guess my literal vote didn't make the difference then. But what did make the difference is the HYPE that surrounded voting in general. Its the whole one side versus the other that makes an election swell to the belief that if one particular person is elected then something good will come. And every person who voted probably participated in a political conversation at the time had their own small contribution to the hype. I'm sure the Chinese probably have some sort of proverb about one grain of sand leading to a pile (or something). That's what I'm getting at.

If you take my vote out, then it must mean that some other vote was the one that actually counted. Or maybe they took out the other guys vote and mine was the one that actually contributed to the base count of votes that pushed Obama over the edge. All the rest were just excess. Either way, every citizen contributed with a vote, and if it wasn't their vote that counted it was their giving into the hype that led to a person getting elected. Either way, that person gets elected by a process no matter how much of a say our individual voices have.

This isn't about the singular value of a vote. This is about how our country sensationalizes a campaign, and creates the perception that one of the 2 candidates actually have the right answer. As George Carlin said, "The rich keep the middle class fighting with each other so that they can keep going to the bank." These powerful, rich, and well crafted campaigns use their funds to WIN, not to create some sort of triumph over evil (as they will have you believe). This time around, I'm much more concerned about the quality of the candidate, and not the media's perception of quality.
Dannydoyle
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Change that is meaningful takes place local levels.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Close.Up.Dave
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On 2011-08-13 23:02, Dannydoyle wrote:
Change that is meaningful takes place local levels.


I can definitely agree to that. Ever since I moved away from the burbs and city I saw what it was like to live in a town where people actually care about their community. Actually, I saw what it was like to live in a community where people weren't interested in appearing wealthy and well to do religious (which they are usually neither).
WagsterMagic
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Copperfield for president... That is all
The Wagsters: World Class Magic & Illusion
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Close.Up.Dave
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On 2011-08-13 23:55, WagsterMagic wrote:
Copperfield for president... That is all


LOL!
NicholasD
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I don't believe the next election choices are confusing at all. IMO, this one is going to be all about the economy, because it's probably going to be a bumpy ride for the next year and a half. If you want taxes to increase, and spending and the deficit to continue to be untethered, you vote one way. If you want immediate steps taken to not raise taxes, to cut spending and to repeal a healthcare bill we didn't need or want ( which, by the way, will give employers the confidence to begin hiring ) you vote the other way.
Close.Up.Dave
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On 2011-08-14 00:27, NicholasD wrote:
I don't believe the next election choices are confusing at all. IMO, this one is going to be all about the economy, because it's probably going to be a bumpy ride for the next year and a half. If you want taxes to increase, and spending and the deficit to continue to be untethered, you vote one way. If you want immediate steps taken to not raise taxes, to cut spending and to repeal a healthcare bill we didn't need or want ( which, by the way, will give employers the confidence to begin hiring ) you vote the other way.


LOL Exactly my point.

Apparently, from what I can tell, your perspective means that tax increases are BADDDDDDDD. If someone votes for a democrat, that means that tax increases are bad, and BIG government is created and all of our tax dollars are wasted and everything goes to *#*@.

So goes the typical narrative.

From the other narrative, low taxes means businesses can thrive, and its the obvious choice to pick the conservative because he is PRO-business.

At least, that's what low taxes is supposed to mean...right???

Is there some sort of balance no one realizes, or are unwilling to tell us?


_____________________

Employers, as you seem to define them, are the people with money and companies who have the potential to hire people. However, just because you CAN hire people doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Employers with money are interested in increasing profits. No "employer" will hire people just because taxes are low or because they can hire people. In fact, if taxes are low, that probably increases their profits. That means nothing for the economy. However, it means great things for that business!

Confidence and profitability are 2 completely different things.

Honestly, I see nothing more from your logic than the typical lie that we are fed everyday. "give use tax decreases and we'll hire people..honestly!"
LobowolfXXX
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Business expansion involves a risk/reward calculation; generally, money goes out of pocket up front in the hopes/expectation that it will ultimately result in more income. A lower tax rate increases the possible upside of that calculation, and weighs in favor of expanding; conversely, a higher tax rate lowers the possible upside even in a best case scenario, and thus weighs against expanding.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Close.Up.Dave
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On 2011-08-14 01:09, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Business expansion involves a risk/reward calculation; generally, money goes out of pocket up front in the hopes/expectation that it will ultimately result in more income. A lower tax rate increases the possible upside of that calculation, and weighs in favor of expanding; conversely, a higher tax rate lowers the possible upside even in a best case scenario, and thus weighs against expanding.


A good idea is a good idea. Hopes/expectation are for people only concerned about $ signs. If your idea (or concept) expands beyond the norm, then you have much more potential to create a business that is highly profitable. A mediocre business will not expand nor calculate beyond the risk/reward calculation because they are more concerned about quantity versus quality.

I have never met (or heard of) a SMART business owner who was only interested in creating a mediocre business that is dependent on short term tax laws or economic situations.

Our economy stems much deeper than that, and we seem to only elect based on short term results.
LobowolfXXX
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Most smart business owners I know project numbers before making major moves (or starting a business in the first place). Those projections include revenue and income figures, and the tax rate directly impacts how much of the revenue turns to income. All business creation and expansion carries a risk of failure; what makes the risk worth accepting is the potential reward, and it's directly impacted by the tax rate. I have a hard time imagining a "smart" business owner ignoring the tax rate, and lower tax rates encourage activities (business expansion and creation) that create jobs.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Close.Up.Dave
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On 2011-08-14 01:37, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Most smart business owners I know project numbers before making major moves (or starting a business in the first place). Those projections include revenue and income figures, and the tax rate directly impacts how much of the revenue turns to income. All business creation and expansion carries a risk of failure; what makes the risk worth accepting is the potential reward, and it's directly impacted by the tax rate. I have a hard time imagining a "smart" business owner ignoring the tax rate, and lower tax rates encourage activities (business expansion and creation) that create jobs.


I'm not talking about "ignoring" the tax rate as much as I am talking about "depending" on it. To depend on a tax rate is to depend on the weather. Each election will have you believe something different, and we cannot pretend our economy can thrive on such changing/specific terms. No one builds a business based on one president's terms. The president changes, as does the tax terms.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-08-14 01:09, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Business expansion involves a risk/reward calculation; generally, money goes out of pocket up front in the hopes/expectation that it will ultimately result in more income. A lower tax rate increases the possible upside of that calculation, and weighs in favor of expanding; conversely, a higher tax rate lowers the possible upside even in a best case scenario, and thus weighs against expanding.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Lobo, than are dreamt of in your business expansion.
landmark
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On 2011-08-13 23:02, Dannydoyle wrote:
Change that is meaningful takes place local levels.

Thumbs up, Danny. But it is also the place to start national change as well.
tommy
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Yes things can change. Just look at history and see how Hitler changed Germany and so on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pakar Ilusi
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Things could be worse where you are.

Look at Somalia.

Seriously.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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